Adding (or not) -e in feminine genitives

[Duncan MacCall]

Everywhere I look I read "In words with two or more syllables, the -e added to feminine nouns in the genitive case is often omitted" or something to the same effect, but I can't make out what exactly that means. Is it that in "formal" speech the -e is there but in informal it's left out, or that some polysyllabic feminine nouns do add it and some don't?

It seems to me that I often come across the same word used either with or without the -e, which would speak for the former, but then I often see in dictionaries some words with the genitive given with it and some with the genitive given without it, which would speak for the latter.

Or is it a matter of formal/informal, dialect, traditional/modern and I don't know what else, thus differing for each word, and one just should rely on, well, subconsciously learning the "right thing to say" through experience?

[*Alasdair*]

At Sabhal Mòr we got taught that you left it out - it's quite archaic.

Nobody writes "... na Gàidhlige". We have "Bòrd na Gàidhlig", not "Bòrd na Gàidhlige".

There are, however, times when you do leave it on. You just have to learn them.

[Thrissel]

So I should assume the "-e" isn't there, but when I come across a word that has it, check I'm not reading some text which was written half a century ago, and just memorise it? Sounds as a good starting point, shouldn't be more difficult than when I was gradually learning, as I was meeting them, irregular English verbs... Thanks a lot!

[Seonaidh]

Gu tric bidh thu a' faicinn "Sràid na h-Eaglaise", ach chan fhaod thu seo a sgrìobhadh - bidh "Sràid na h-Eaglais" ceart gu leòr (tha eisimpleir ann an Inbhir Nis)

[Tearlach61]

It's more common with single syllable words:

mo làmh> cùl mo làimhe

mo chas> bonn mo choise

I really don't hear it much in two syllable words, except words like Eaglais>Sràid na h-Eaglaise where the older form is captured/frozen like in a place name.

Add an -e on a two syllable word would sound kind of archaic, like saying thee, thou and thy in English. But I don't think that is the case for the single syllable words. You hear it alot and I would encourage learners to do so as well.

This ties into a discussion elsewhere a few weeks ago on this board on the decline of usage of the genitive, particularly among those in FMG. I think that is a real shame. Much of Gàidhlig's power is in the genitive, it allows Gàidhlig to come up with terms for modern things without going to other language like Latin or English, whereas English typically goes to Latin for names of modern things.

[Seonaidh]

On the "genitive", I must disagree there. Welsh has no special "genitive" case ending, but still makes powerful new words with the same sort of formation as Gaelic, e.g. "Sràid na h-Eaglais[e]" and "Stryd yr Eglwys", "cùl mo laimhe" and "cefn fy llaw", "bonn mo choise" and "gwadn fy nhroed" (tha "coes" sa Chuimris a' ciallachadh "leg" sa Bheurla, chan eil i a' ciallachadh "foot" idir), "Pàrlamaid na h-Alba" and "Senedd yr Alban". It's the same formation, but no case changes, f'rinstance, all these second parts ("genitives" would be identical in Welsh if they were subjects, objects, datives or whatever. In other words, the power is not in the specific "genitive" varieties of nouns, articles etc, but in the method of the possessive/relative construction.

[faoileag]

I would be very wary indeed of learners independently deciding to drop the 'e' consistently on the basis of some native-speakers and other Gaelic learners doing so for purposes of convenience in (usually) rapid colloquial speech.

The language will change anyway over time, but I would prefer these changes came from native-speakers.

At the moment the 'e' is generally used in one-syllable words, as Tearlach says, in particular in less colloquial/less rapid speech, and in written Gaelic, and in frozen features you see multi-syllable words with 'e' as well, as Seonaidh says.

If you see/ hear it, learn it. If in doubt, put it in, especially in writing.

It gives users an extra way to play around with register, style, tone etc, thereby giving more texture and subtlety to the language, and it would be a shame to lose this in one generation just for ease of learning.

(It's also very handy in poetry and song, as you have that flexible syllable to use or not as suits the context.)

[Níall Beag]

The language will change anyway over time, but I would prefer these changes came from native-speakers.

As a learner, I agree. It is not our place to anticipate changes, we should merely follow them.

It gives users an extra way to play around with register, style, tone etc, thereby giving more texture and subtlety to the language, and it would be a shame to lose this in one generation just for ease of learning.

It's not just about ease of learning -- it's teachers overcompensating for a desire not to sound "old fashioned". I've heard people who speak with strong traditional genitives not teaching genitives because "the genitive is dying out". According to who?

As far as I'm concerned, the genitive is an extraordinarily useful thing in any language where the verb starts or ends a clause/sentence, because it allows us to see where one noun phrase stops and the next starts....

[akerbeltz]

Been away...

Apart from the mono/polysyllable thing, there's another rule that governs the use of final -e in words like that. This applies to the spoken language, mind.

In a nutshell:
*at the end of a phrase or sentence
*preceding a word with another initial vowel
final -e (any stand-alone weak /ə/ really) is lost in general in Gaelic.

Bha mi aig doras na h-eaglais(e).
Bha mi aig doras na h-eaglais(e) agus...
Bha mi aig doras na h-eaglaise dhan a...

Some people choose to write Gaelic reflecting the way they speak, so you will get alternations even from the same writer.

As a rule of thumb I would advise that in a high register written text, you should write what the dictionaries tell you the genitive is. In spoken Gaelic, apply the general rules of deleting /ə/.

Hope that helps.[/list]