Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Ciamar a chanas mi.... / How do I say...
jasonleitch
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Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby jasonleitch » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:14 pm

So, is there? Whats the best way to tackle learning vocab i.e. words per day, flash cards, all the forms that pop up. I mean is it best to have a ridged systematic approach

Nom M/F?
Dat M/F?
Plu M/F?

Imperative
Plu
Past
Future
Conditional
Relative Future
Gen

With all the Qu, Neg, Neg Qu and lenition rules that follow. What's some of the systems that are simple and effective learning techniques that I can employ from here on. Finally is there any resources you can suggest good on practical grammar instead of me reading the dictionary. Thanks



faoileag
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Re: Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby faoileag » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:40 pm

Unless you are totally against systematic / traditional/grammatical learning, which you don't seem to be, these are my recommendations.

NOUNS:
Wherever and however you learn them, learn gender (M/F), nominative singual, and genitive singular.
If the plural form as given in the dictionary is in any way unexpected to you, learn that as well. (Expected plurals = adding(e)an to nom. sing., OR replacing -ach with -aich.)

VERBS:
Learn only the two core forms of regular verbs - the stem and the verbal noun, eg sgrìobh, a' sgrìobhadh - write.
With regular verbs you can form ALL other tenses from these two.
Even with irregular verbs often quite a few tenses or parts of them are based on these forms, and the rest you have to learn as you go along anyway.
Grammar is only patterning - recurring patterns (traditionally called 'rules') which can be reapplied to the basic forms you learn. You don't have to reinvent the wheel every time. That includes when to lenite. It's far from random.

Learning in context is generally better than only learning from lists, cards, word-a-day etc. If you do learn that way, then try ALSO to include an example of use on the flashcard etc, or do some in-context reading/listening/writing practice using the flash-card vocabulary - and of course, speaking. Talk to yourself, read aloud, take up the Skype offers and requests.

Why context?

1. different languages use words differently, e.g. with different prepositions, or what's formal in one language is informal in another, or there are special idiomatic expressions that have to be acquired 'whole', not as separate items of vocab.

2. Using a word in a sentence means you practise and reinforce any grammar that goes with it (e.g. the form of the article, with or wthout lenition depending on whether it's dative etc etc), you maybe make yourself an example with the genitive or the plural to help remember that, and you get used to creating / understanding meaningful utterances with your vocab and grammar - which is what a language is for.


I really, really wish you would leave the theory be for the moment and get some visible practice on here. Helping you in theory is pretty thankless. We see no results, can give no feedback.


Risk it. Make mistakes, get comments, apply them > learn.

jasonleitch
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Re: Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby jasonleitch » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:11 am

I understand I want to start doing that stuff, there is just sooooo much I still don't know. And vocab is a big part of it's at the point where I'm pretty sure I know how something would be expressed grammatically but then don't know the words to say it! I'm really trying.

faoileag
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Re: Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby faoileag » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:36 pm

OK, then try this. Just do it. :D


Write what you think these would be in Gaelic. Post them a few at a time, DON'T WAIT till you have done them all! :spors:


1. I am from .... (name of place)


2. I am living in (place). It's in.... (country / state etc)


3. Where are you living?


4. That's interesting. Is it near the sea? - Yes /No.


5. I'm learning Gaelic, but sometimes it's difficult.


6. I was in (place) in the summer.


7. It was very big / pretty / small / cold / hot etc.


8. Where were you in the summer?


9. I like (ice-cream / coffee etc)


10. I don't like .....


11. Do you like....? - Yes / No.


12. I have a car (bike etc). Do you have a car (etc)? - Yes / No.


13. My car is red(etc). It was cheap / expensive.


14. My car (etc) is in the garage (etc). Where is your car (etc)? - It's ...... (say where)


15. My brother has a dog. It's brown and white.


16. The dog's tail is very long.


17. My parents have two cats and three goldfishes. The cats are big and lazy.


18. Do you have a pet? - Yes / No


19. Aren't pets nice? - Yes, usually.


20. Now I have a sore head! :lol:

faoileag
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Re: Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby faoileag » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:45 pm

Just so you don't run and hide forever :mc: , I have chosen grammar and vocab you have most certaily met or can easily find, going from the questions you ask and what you have mentioned about your learning. It's more or less all early in any book or online teaching course (incl. TAIC, Beag air Bheag etc), or belongs to the fields of grammar you've asked us about.


Give it a go, a couple at a time, and try out the theory in practice. We'll help! :D
Attempts are what we are looking for, NOT perfection.

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Re: Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby Seonaidh » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:35 am

Ciamar a dh'ionnsaich thu Beurla? Le leabhraichean gràmair a leughadh? Agus gach turas gun do dh'ionnsaich thu facal ùr - an do chuir thu ann am bocsa gràmair e? An do rinn thu mearachdan idir nuair a bhruidhinn thu? An robh iad (na mearachdan a rinn thu) gad bhodraigeadh idir?

All languages are like other languages in many ways - and unlike other languages in many ways. The more languages you know (even vaguely) the more you realise the limitations of "grammar". Especially if you mind that, for any language, most speakers are blissfully unaware of all the "grammar" they're using. How often do you sit down with an English sentence and do a grammatical analysis of it? Does it bother you that the plural of "roof" is "roofs", while the plural of "hoof" is "hooves"? Can you explain the difference between "I am going to bed", "I will go to bed" and "I am going to go to bed"? How would you account for the difference between "This needs doing" and "This needs done"? Is there a difference? When would you use "I eat lunch", "I'm eating lunch" and "I'll eat lunch"? Or "I'm going to eat lunch"? Would you see a difference between "he is gone" and "he has gone"? Have you ever thought it strange to say "I'm eating dinner tomorrow"? Were I to use a conditional tense, would you recognise it? In English, they say (or would that be better as "one says" or "is said"?) "he/she/it is, isn't he/she/it?", "we/you/they are, aren't we/you they?" - and also "I am, aren't I?" - ever struck you as odd? Why "drive-drove-driven" but "thrive-thrived-thrived"? Now, isn't Gaelic easy by comparison!

Loads of people seem to manage to learn English pretty well - and I'm not meaning first-language English speakers here. I somehow doubt that many - if any - of them get particularly hung up on English grammar. There's a lesson there for you.

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Re: Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby akerbeltz » Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:25 am

The best advice I can give you about the gender of nouns is to learn everyone with an adjective, i.e. don't just learn cù = dog and cas = leg, learn cù mòr, cas mhòr etc (mòr is a good one because it shows lenition consistently and works with most, even abstract ones).

Other than that, what faoileag said :)

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Re: Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby GunChleoc » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:02 pm

Another strategy to learn the gender of nouns is to memorise the genitive with the article, because in the genitive form the article tells you if it's m or f. You can even put these in a little useful phrase:

doras, Tha mi a' fosgladh an dorais
uinneag, Tha mi a' fosgladh na h-uinneige

And I'm with faoileag about jumping in and trying things out. Take your time to put together your sentences and use the dictionary. I learned Gaelic without having crammed a single piece of vocabulary, ever. There's nothing wrong with memorising, but it's much more fun when you then try out what you have learned! Just start with something simple, like talking about the weather of faoileag's sentences.
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jasonleitch
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Re: Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby jasonleitch » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:19 am

Faoileag thank you! I have not run away! =O I've been soooooooo busy, it was fun to answer these questions, prolly made a few mistakes but oh well.

Seonaidh, I don't remember how Iearned English, I was a baby, I don't even think when I speak it just happens. ged a tha sibh gu cinnteach ceart, cha robh e le leabhraichean gramair a leughadh. ach bocsa gramair? I don't have much of a choice at the moment, being on the wrong side of the Atlantic and all. One day, when I have the money and time to come home and vists na h-eileanan an iar I will. If I didn't have to leave my wife (America a th' innte) I would already be back.

Everyones advice has been great I will study it well. Moran taing dhut a h-uile duine

1. I am from .... (name of place)
Tha mi à Alba

2. I am living in (place). It's in.... (country / state etc)
tha mi a' fuireach ann an America an-dràsta

3. Where are you living?
Cait' a bheil thu/sibh a'fuireach?

4. That's interesting. Is it near the sea? - Yes /No.
Tha sin inntinneach, a bheil e fasig air a'mhuir?? Tha / Chan eil

5. I'm learning Gaelic, but sometimes it's difficult.
Tha mi ag ionnsachadh Gaidhlig, ach … not sure how to say sometimes

6. I was in (place) in the summer.
Bha mi aig dh'obair anns an t-shamhradh

7. It was very big / pretty / small / cold / hot etc.
tha e/i gle mhor / bhreagha / bheag / fhuar / theth/ bhlath

8. Where were you in the summer?
Cait' a bheil thu/sibh anns an t-shamhradh

9. I like (ice-cream / coffee etc)
'S toigh/toil leam ice-cream agus coffee

10. I don't like .....
Cha toigh/toil leam car ur agad
is beag orm an dath sin

11. Do you like....? - Yes / No.
An toigh/toil leat? 'S toil / Cha toil

12. I have a car (bike etc). Do you have a car (etc)? - Yes / No.
Tha car agam. A bheil thu car agad? Tha / Chan eil

13. My car is red(etc). It was cheap / expensive.
Tha mo char dearg. Bha e doar! (not sure on cheap)

14. My car (etc) is in the garage (etc). Where is your car (etc)? - It's ...... (say where)
Tha mo char anns a'gharaids. Cait' a bheil do char? Tha e...

15. My brother has a dog. It's brown and white.
Tha cu aig mo bhrathair, tha e donn agus geal

16. The dog's tail is very long.
Tha dog's tail gle fhada (not sure if dogs tail is genitive or separate word)

17. My parents have two cats and three goldfishes. The cats are big and lazy.
Tha da cait agus tri or-isag aig mo pharantan. Tha na cait mor agus leisg

18. Do you have a pet? - Yes / No
Tha peata agad/agaibh?

19. Aren't pets nice? - Yes, usually.
Nach eil peatan snog? (not sure on usually)

20. Now I have a sore head!
Tha pian anns a' cheann a-nis!

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Re: Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby akerbeltz » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:20 am

Jason, in passing - there's quite a lot of typos in what you wrote. I'm not implying that you should be perfect at this stage but if you used one of the browsers with a Gaelic spellchecker, that would help you improve your spelling on a lot of the really obvious errors.

Just a thought.

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Re: Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby Thrissel » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:01 pm

So...

3. Cait' a bheil thu/sibh a'fuireach? -> Càit', a' fuireach (space)
4. Tha sin inntinneach, a bheil e fasig air a'mhuir?? -> faisg, a' mhuir
5. Tha mi ag ionnsachadh Gaidhlig -> Gàidhlig; sometimes it's difficult = tha e doirbh/duilich uaireannan
6. Bha mi aig dh'obair anns an t-shamhradh -> aig obair, anns an t-samhradh (you lenited by adding the t- so you can't also add the -h-)
7. tha e/i gle mhor / bhreagha / bheag / fhuar / theth/ bhlath -> glè, mhòr, bhrèagha, bhlàth
8. Where were you in the summer?
Cait' a bheil thu/sibh anns an t-shamhradh -> as above, plus a bheil -> an robh (past tense)
9. 'S toigh/toil leam ice-cream agus coffee -> reòiteag, cofaidh
10. Cha toigh/toil leam car ur agad -> càr, ùr, plus when you use agam, agad &c in this way you need the article -> an càr ùr agam
12. Tha car agam. A bheil thu car agad? -> càr, plus of course without the thu -> a bheil càr agad?
13. Tha mo char dearg. Bha e doar! (not sure on cheap) -> an càr agam (alienable), daor, cheap=saor
14. Tha mo char anns a'gharaids. Cait' a bheil do char? - as above incl a' gharaids
15. Tha cu aig mo bhrathair, tha e donn agus geal -> cù, bhràthair
16. Tha dog's tail gle fhada (not sure if dogs tail is genitive or separate word) -> glè; the dog's tail - earball a' choin
17. Tha da cait agus tri or-isag aig mo pharantan. Tha na cait mor agus leisg -> dà cat (singular after , but you have correctly na cait=the cats in the following sentence), trì, òr-èisg (I guess, hey faoileag, slow down a bit with the vocabulary :D ), mòr
19. not sure on usually -> mar as àbhaist, mar is àbhaist, am bitheantas
20. Now I have a sore head!
Tha pian anns a' cheann a-nis! - tha am pian nam cheann but I guess tha mo cheann goirt would be more idiomatic

Altogether, as Akerbeltz said, mostly typos, accents in particular. I know that an English speaker tends to overlook them as of little significance but in Gaelic they affect pronunciation and even meaning, just like they do eg in French. On the other hand, I've seen much worse first efforts here, including people ignoring accents altogether...

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Re: Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby faoileag » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:23 pm

Nach math a rinn thu! - Didn't you do well! :D

(I must admit I was slightly worried you'd gone underground.... :? )

I am most impressed and pleased. See what you can do when you finally force yourself! :moladh:


And mòran taing do Thrissel for all the corrections. :moladh:

I'd like to put the emphasis on all you got right, and the way you are able to use Gaelic that makes sense to a Gaelic speaker.

Now figure out what the corrections are telling you and write a few more sentences of your own, along the same lines. Stay with the grammar in these sentences for the moment till you've practised it a bit more and firmed it up by further (public :spors: ) trial and error. :D

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Re: Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby jasonleitch » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:09 am

AH! thanks guys, all the spelling mistakes with accents and graves were completely intentional, I know that's how they're all spelled, I was being lazy and it was really late. Few spelling mistakes and mixups weren't. I'm trying to transition into a new job and with all the work I just went for it. But I'll include all accents from now on.

Bha mi aig dh'obair anns an t-shamhradh -> aig obair, anns an t-samhradh (you lenited by adding the t- so you can't also add the -h-)
this was just careless

Cait' a bheil thu/sibh anns an t-shamhradh -> as above, plus a bheil -> an robh (past tense)
silly that I missed that =P

10. Cha toigh/toil leam car ur agad -> càr, ùr, plus when you use agam, agad &c in this way you need the article -> an càr ùr agam
this is good to know!

12. Tha car agam. A bheil thu car agad? -> càr, plus of course without the thu -> a bheil càr agad?
careless again!

Tha mo char dearg. Bha e doar! (not sure on cheap) -> an càr agam (alienable), daor, cheap=saor
good to know and thanks I need to start thinking in those terms!

16. Tha dog's tail gle fhada (not sure if dogs tail is genitive or separate word) -> glè; the dog's tail - earball a' choin
again much appreciated!

Tha da cait agus tri or-isag aig mo pharantan. Tha na cait mor agus leisg -> dà cat (singular after dà, but you have correctly na cait=the cats in the following sentence), trì, òr-èisg (I guess, hey faoileag, slow down a bit with the vocabulary :D ), mòr

COMPLETE shot in the dark, no idea how to count yet.

not sure on usually -> mar as àbhaist, mar is àbhaist, am bitheantas
=D needed that

Well, I'm proud of what I did (apart from being lazy on the accents) considering when I first came on here I knew more ancient aztec than I did Gàidhlig (see =P à)

Thanks faoileag and everyone! a-rithist

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Re: Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby GunChleoc » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:26 pm

Glè mhath!

Keep at it! Two things:

dà lenites -> dà chat

usually -> mar as àbhaist, am bitheantas, mar as trice. Take your pick :)
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Learning vocab, system? Is there one?

Unread postby Polygot2017 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:29 pm

faoileag wrote:Source of the post
NOUNS:
Wherever and however you learn them, learn gender (M/F), nominative singual, and genitive singular.
If the plural form as given in the dictionary is in any way unexpected to you, learn that as well. (Expected plurals = adding(e)an to nom. sing., OR replacing -ach with -aich.)


Are all these forms of nouns listed in the dictionary? As far as I can tell, the dictionary at LearnGaelic lists the plural ('pl') and genitive singular forms ('gen', one would presume?), but I don't see the nominitive singular. As for Faclair I see the terms 'fir', 'gin' and 'iol' listed for each noun - what are these?