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What does it mean? Various questions

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:33 pm
by poor_mouse
Here: gaelicgrammar.org there are such exspressions as "thathar mi (tu etc)", "robhar mi (tu etc)"...

Thèid agam air tuigsinn "chualas mi" -- "I'm heard" agus rudegin coltach ri "thathar gam chluinntinn", ach chan eil mi a' tuigsinn dè tha "thathar mi" a' ciallachadh... :(

Re: What does it mean?

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:42 pm
by faoileag
Above the relevant table it says:

"The Impersonal is used to indicate an indeterminate subject. bhatar mi' means "I was been"
Since Gaelic doesn't distinguish between subject and object pronouns (unlike it's sibling Modern Irish), it is very difficult to determine if these pronouns are subjects or objects. We list them here as if they were subjects, with the understanding that the pronouns in the following tables represent the logical objects of the verb "

This is just presented as theory, as far as I can see, on analogy with verbs that do take an object, like faic > chithear mi - one will see me / I'll be seen..

See, for example, the parallel entry for Faic (scroll down to Passive/Impersonal)
http://www.gaelicgrammar.org/~gaelic/me ... ular_verb)
"When used with a pronoun, the pronoun represents the logical object of the verb. So "Chunnacas mi" means "Someone saw me". This is often translated as "I was seen", hence the typical "passive" label.
Since Gaelic doesn't distinguish between subject and object pronouns (unlike it's sibling Modern Irish), it is very difficult to determine if these pronouns are subjects or objects. We list them here as if they were subjects, with the understanding that the pronouns in the following tables represent the logical objects of the verb (the person who was heard, not the hearer)."

Somewhat confusing taken out of context, as 'Bi' doesn't take an object.

Even if the 'bi' is used as an auxiliary, you would get this:

Thathar gam bhualadh - one is hitting me / I'm being hit. ( NO 'mi', no 'mo'.)

Re: What does it mean?

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:02 pm
by akerbeltz
NO 'mi', no 'mo'.

Image

Re: What does it mean?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:51 am
by poor_mouse
Seadh, Akerbeltz chòir, tha mi a' tuigsinn a h-uile rud mu dheidhinn 'chunnacas mi' agus 'thathar gam bhualadh'.

So "thathar mi" is a theoretical (abstract) example only without any practical use, isn't it?

As for fire-engine... chan eil mi air a thuigsinn. Gabh mo leisgeul :naire:

Re: What does it mean?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:49 am
by Níall Beag
Poor_mouse, dé am fuaim a tha aig na carbaidean-smàlaidh? Mì-mò-mì-mò...

Co-dhiubh, the writing on that site is rather... odd. Yes, "bhathar mi" etc are completely meaningless -- absolute nonsense. The English tr*nsl*t**n on the site isn't possible in English, and the Gaelic version isn't possible in Gaelic.

Basically, the authors are so fixated on the concept of verb tables that they've something that doesn't fit natural patterns just so that they can include it in a table....

Re: What does it mean?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:49 pm
by Níall Beag
In fact, they're even being internally inconsistent. They say the form is "impersonal", not passive, on the grounds that it's not using a subject, then they list the forms with a subject, implying it's a passive structure.

Madness, I tell you.

Edit: I looks like they've used a template and automatically generated some of the pages using copy-and-paste, hence the nonsensical examples. However, it still doesn't excuse them for saying it's not passive because the affected party isn't the subject... and then including the affected party as the subject....

Re: What does it mean?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:35 pm
by Thrissel
Níall Beag wrote:dé am fuaim a tha aig na carbaidean-smàlaidh? Mì-mò-mì-mò...
A-ha! Cha do thug no mise sin. Cha bhi na carbaidean-smàlaidh far an do thogadh mi a' seinn /mi: mɔ: mi: mɔ:/ ach /tɪ: tɑ: tɪ: tɑ:/ - 's dòcha gum bidh iad a' dèanamh fuaim mar sin san Ruis mar an ceudna... :D
Níall Beag wrote:the authors are
Aon ùghdar:
http://www.gaelicgrammar.org/~gaelic/me ... ext=Search
Dh'fhàg Jojo a dhachaigh ann an Tucson, Arizona airson feur Califòrnianach agus dh'fhàg Anndra a dhachaigh ann an Calgary, Alberta airson teagasg chànan Ceilteach agus dhannsaichean Balganach ann an Tucson, Arizona.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Carnie
Go figure.

Re: What does it mean?

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:52 am
by faoileag
Níall Beag wrote:In fact, they're even being internally inconsistent. They say the form is "impersonal", not passive, on the grounds that it's not using a subject, then they list the forms with a subject, implying it's a passive structure.

Madness, I tell you.

Edit: I looks like they've used a template and automatically generated some of the pages using copy-and-paste, hence the nonsensical examples. However, it still doesn't excuse them for saying it's not passive because the affected party isn't the subject... and then including the affected party as the subject....

Uhuh, they expressly say 'object' - it just looks like a subject (for neatness sake?):
"We list them here as if they were subjects, with the understanding that the pronouns in the following tables represent the logical objects of the verb (the person who was heard, not the hearer)." :spors:

Re: What does it mean?

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:31 pm
by GunChleoc
Gu follaiseach, chan eil seo sgrìobhte don luchd-ionnsachaidh ach do luchd-saidheans aig a bheil toinntespeak. ;)

Re: What does it mean?

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:59 pm
by poor_mouse
Mòran taing, a h-uile duine!

Tha mi fìor thoilichte nach eil mi craicte: bha eagal orm nach robh m' aigne slàn nuair a bha mi an teacsa sin a' leughadh...

Agus b' fheudar dhomh smaoineachadh mu dheidhinn fuaimean, ged nach bi no na carbaidean-smàlaidh againne a' seinn "Mì-mò-mì-mò..." :D

Re: What does it mean? Various questions

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:49 pm
by poor_mouse
Am Faclair Beag wrote: òrdanas fir. gin. -ais, iol. -an ...

suirbhidh /surʲɪvɪ/ boir. ...

An t-Suirbhidh Òrdanais
Ordnance Survey (OS)
'S dòcha gu bheil "Òrdanais" ginideach, nach eil?
Ach carson "An t-Suirbhidh Òrdanais" seach "Suirbhidh An Òrdanais"?

Re: What does it mean? Various questions

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:23 pm
by GunChleoc
'S e close compound a th' ann. Smaoinich air Òrdanais mar bhuadhair.

Is tha thu ceart, tha e san tuiseal ginideach

Re: What does it mean?

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:18 pm
by Níall Beag
One author? And yet he has a page entitled "passive" that doesn't once mention his dislike of the term "passive" to describe the Gaelic form....
faoileag wrote:Uhuh, they expressly say 'object' - it just looks like a subject (for neatness sake?):
"We list them here as if they were subjects, with the understanding that the pronouns in the following tables represent the logical objects of the verb (the person who was heard, not the hearer)." :spors:
It's that word "logical" though... to me I interpreted it as "logical object (even if not a structural object)". At best, it's sloppy writing....

Re: What does it mean? Various questions

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:00 pm
by akerbeltz
They've removed the pronouns from the bi table :)

Re: What does it mean? Various questions

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:32 am
by poor_mouse
GunChleoc wrote:'S e close compound a th' ann. Smaoinich air Òrdanais mar bhuadhair.

Is tha thu ceart, tha e san tuiseal ginideach
Mòran taing, a GhunChleoc!