Am Bìoball Gàidhlig 1992

Ciamar a chanas mi.... / How do I say...
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poor_mouse
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Unread postby poor_mouse » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:28 am

Tha mi a' leughadh Gnìomharan nan Abstol an-seo
Agus air do Pheadar sealltainn gu geur air, maille ri Eòin, thubhairt e, Amhairc oirnne (3:4)
And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, “Look at us.”

Agus air dha breith air a làimh dheis, thog e suas e (3:7)
And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up

Air do Dhia a Mhac Iosa a thogail suas, chuir e dur n-ionnsaigh-se e air tùs, a-chum gum beannaicheadh e sibh (3:26)
To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you


It's very integersting expression: "air do X" as "while X was doing something" or "X, having done something".
Is it very old-fasioned? Is it quite understandable now or not?


Eilidh -- Luchag Bhochd

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Unread postby GunChleoc » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:41 am

Nowadays, you add a "tha" and leave out the "do".

"Nuair a bhios sinn air ar biadh a ghabhail, feumaidh sinn na soithichean a nighe."

Seall cuideachd air http://www.academia.edu/2488427/Scottis ... d_Edition_, duilleag 50, 58.
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

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Unread postby poor_mouse » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:11 am

It's quite different construction, I think: "air do Pheadar sealltainn" vs "nuair a bha Peadar air sealltainn".
Yes, there is 'air' in both cases...
It seems that "air do X sealltainn" is rather similar to "is urrainn do X sealltainn" etc, only "air" (instead of "is urrainn") indicates the adverbial phrase following after X.
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Unread postby akerbeltz » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:18 am

It seems that "air do X sealltainn" is rather similar to "is urrainn do X sealltainn" etc, only "air" (instead of "is urrainn") indicates the adverbial phrase following after X.


No. Air do Pheadar sealltainn means "after Peter had looked/after Peter looking", it does not mean "Peter can look". It really is the past tense do before the name.

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Unread postby poor_mouse » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:54 am

Mòran taing!
It's more interesting than I thought.
akerbeltz wrote:...it does not mean "Peter can look". It really is the past tense do before the name.
Yes, I didn't think that it was "can".

Is is possible to read anywhere about it? I mean "do" of the past tense not before the verb.
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Unread postby poor_mouse » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:01 am

O, no. I think it's not the past tense "do".
Here it's quite clear:
Agus air dha breith air a làimh dheis, thog e suas e (3:7)
Air dhaibh a bhith fo dhoilgheas gu robh iad a’ teagasg an t‑sluaigh (4:2)
Agus air dhaibh iadsan a chur anns a’ mheadhon, dh’fheòraich iad (4:7)
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Unread postby poor_mouse » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:29 am

I understand now; it's like "an dèidh do X" [+ object] + verbal noun.
This "air" = "an dèidh".
So, it seems that my questions:
Is it very old-fasioned? Is it quite understandable now or not?
are unswered. Yes, it is very old-fasioned and not very easy understandable now.

A bheil me ceart?
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Unread postby akerbeltz » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:17 pm

yes, it's the air with past tense force - and I was talking shite because the do isn't the past tense particle but the preposition do as you said. Sorry, I wasn't feeling too well this morning.

air + dhomh/dhut/dha/etc is still relatively common in formal contexts. But air do + name is unusual for sure.

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Unread postby Droigheann » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:14 pm

I found this structure in Colin Mark's dictionary (2004) under air (p 22):

6. air do (or the prep prons of do) + the vn may be translated in a number of ways □ air do Sheumas a thilleadh dhachaigh thug e a leabaidh air when James returned home, he went to bed □ air dhi an litir a shìneadh dha dh'fhalbh i after handing the letter to him, she left □ air dhomh an doras a ghlasadh chuir mi an iuchair nam pòcaid having locked the door, I put the key in my pocket
Last edited by Droigheann on Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby poor_mouse » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:26 pm

Mòran taing!

Agus tha mi an dòchas gum bi thu slàn fallain a dh'aithghearr, Akerbeltz!
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Unread postby akerbeltz » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:12 am

Agus tha mi an dòchas gum bi thu slàn fallain a dh'aithghearr, Akerbeltz!

Mòran taing... bha biadh a dhìth orm, seach dìreach cofaidh :naire:

I found this structure in Colin Mark's dictionary (2004) under air (p 22):

Yeah, that's the one, it's all the same... the only difference is really that when tr*nsl*t*ng into idiomatic English, the phraseology varies but in terms of the actual Gaelic construction, they're all the same. Gaelic dictionaries have this tendency to confuse tr*nsl*t**n with meaning and vice versa.

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Unread postby poor_mouse » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:31 am

I do like this structure with "do" because it's dative, and so it is partly similar to the "дательный самостоятельный" (independent dative) in Church Slavonic, i.e. (past participle + subject) in dative = adverbial phrase:
И влезшу ему в корабль, по нем идоша ученицы его (Matthew 8:23 - And when he was entered into a ship, his disciples followed him).
As with "air do", so here may be various meanings in different contexts: when, after, because of, although etc.
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Unread postby poor_mouse » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:28 am

akerbeltz wrote:Mòran taing... bha biadh a dhìth orm, seach dìreach cofaidh :naire:

Tha an dòigh-ithe seo gu math cruaidh!
Eilidh -- Luchag Bhochd