How to find out the verbal noun form of a verb from the dictionary/imperative form? I'm trying to learn all verb tenses

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Polygot2017
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How to find out the verbal noun form of a verb from the dictionary/imperative form? I'm trying to learn all verb tenses

Unread postby Polygot2017 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:51 pm

So I've decided to learn all the verb tenses in Gàidhlig, and I'm putting them all into a 'cheat sheet' that I'm making with a spreadsheet so that I can easily reference everything and make it easier to learn.

Anyway, my first question is: I've been reading about how to get all the tenses in Gàidhlig, and most sources say that you need to start with the command form (imperative) of the verb, i.e. the form of the verb you'll find in the dictionary, and that you can get all the other tenses by manipulating this form. I.e. unlike in English, you do not start by looking up the infinitive ('to' form) of the verb, but start with the command form (imperative) instead. Have I understood this correctly? If so, good so far, if not please correct me, because the next bit I'm going to write seems to contradict what I've read...

What about tenses that use verbal nouns, such as the present tense with Tha, the past with Bha, etc? These are not formed by starting out with the imperative, but instead use the verbal noun. I don't see the verbal noun listed in the dictionary alongside the infinitive form. Is there a way to get the verbal noun form by starting out with the imperative form and changing it? If not, why do most sources tell you to start out with the command form? Or do I need to type into the dictionary the verb with 'ing' on the end to find out the verbal noun, or where can I find out the verbal noun forms?

I am using the dictionary on learngaelic.net, which seems very comprehensive.

So, as I understand it, in order to learn all possible verb tenses in Gàidhlig, one needs to learn BOTH the imperative form and the verbal noun form, which can then be used to form whatever tense you require. Is this correct or am I missing something?



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How to find out the verbal noun form of a verb from the dictionary/imperative form? I'm trying to learn all verb tenses

Unread postby akerbeltz » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:30 pm

I'm not entirely sure about what you're asking but the following are broadly true:

- the citation/dictionary form of a Gaelic verb is the imperative singular
- you must learn the citation form and the associated verbal noun of each regular verb together because only in some cases can you derive the verbal noun from the imperative with any degree of accuracy by a rule. Mostly it's unpredictable but fortunately, Gaelic speakers are used to VN variation i.e. if you used faireachadh instead of faireachdainn, no one will bat an eyelid
- verbal nouns are tenseless. In sentences that use the verb bi or the copula is, the tense comes from the bi / is part. The verb bi appears in all the usual tenses plus the present (something the other verbs mostly lack) and the copula is appears in very few (present and past/conditional). Bi, incidentally, is the imperative of the tha/bha verb. Maybe that's what's confusing you? So in bi sàmhach "be quiet" for example, the imperative appears.

LearnGaelic is fine to use, but the more complete version of it is the Faclair Beag (of which the LearnGaelic dictionary is a subset). LearnGaelic has the advantage of having more sound but the Faclair Beag has added features such as the rankings and dialect maps not on LearnGaelic.

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How to find out the verbal noun form of a verb from the dictionary/imperative form? I'm trying to learn all verb tenses

Unread postby Polygot2017 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:08 pm

akerbeltz wrote:Source of the post
- you must learn the citation form and the associated verbal noun of each regular verb together because only in some cases can you derive the verbal noun from the imperative with any degree of accuracy by a rule. Mostly it's unpredictable but fortunately, Gaelic speakers are used to VN variation i.e. if you used faireachadh instead of faireachdainn, no one will bat an eyelid


Ok, I thought it was true that I have to learn the imperative form (citation) and the verbal noun. Now your reply confirms it. I know the citation form is listed in the dictionary, but where do I find out the verbal noun? Is it also available in the dictionary, or do you have any other sources I can find a list of them? I want to learn 200 to 300 common everyday verbs, so I can express myself in a wide variety of situations, so I will need a comprehensive source for verbal nouns.

akerbeltz wrote:- verbal nouns are tenseless. In sentences that use the verb bi or the copula is, the tense comes from the bi / is part. The verb bi appears in all the usual tenses plus the present (something the other verbs mostly lack) and the copula is appears in very few (present and past/conditional).

Bi, incidentally, is the imperative of the tha/bha verb. Maybe that's what's confusing you? So in bi sàmhach "be quiet" for example, the imperative appears.


Is the verb 'bi' (presumably this is the command form of 'to be'), used to derive all tenses? What about the simple past - don't you just lenite the beginning of the verb (imperative form) to get the past tense form, eg 'fàgail' (leave) becomes 'dh'fhàg' (left), etc? This tense doesn't seem to use a verbal noun with Tha, Bha, etc, but rather just modifies the imperative form by lenition and is followed by a pronoun. I seem to remember there are some other tenses like this too that also don't use the verbal noun form, but I will study them in Taic soon.

As for the imperative forms, I thought there were two forms of the imperative - the polite form, and the informal form, for example 'sit down' can be either 'Suidhibh sìos' or 'Suidh sìos', right? So are you saying there's another imperative form that uses 'bi' as well? I haven't really studied that yet, but I'll get to it.

Thanks.

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How to find out the verbal noun form of a verb from the dictionary/imperative form? I'm trying to learn all verb tenses

Unread postby akerbeltz » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:44 pm

I know the citation form is listed in the dictionary, but where do I find out the verbal noun? Is it also available in the dictionary, or do you have any other sources I can find a list of them? I want to learn 200 to 300 common everyday verbs, so I can express myself in a wide variety of situations, so I will need a comprehensive source for verbal nouns.

In the LearnGaelic dictionary you have to expand the headword by clicking on the double V, in the Faclair Beag it's immediately visible, the bit that says ag. -XYZ. Either way, I think almost all dictionaries indicate the corresponding verbal noun some way or other.

Is the verb 'bi' (presumably this is the command form of 'to be'), used to derive all tenses?

Only to hardcore linguists. It's one of the irregular verbs so you just have to memorise that one, along with the other 11 or so. Bi does have a verbal noun - bith - but its uses are a bit restricted.

As for the imperative forms, I thought there were two forms of the imperative - the polite form, and the informal form, for example 'sit down' can be either 'Suidhibh sìos' or 'Suidh sìos', right? So are you saying there's another imperative form that uses 'bi' as well? I haven't really studied that yet, but I'll get to it.

Correct (the pairing is singular/colloquial) vs plural/polite) i.e. suidhibh is either you being polite to a single person or you ordering around a group. But there are instances where the order you are giving is not a verb in itself, at least not in Gaelic. For instance, you don't normally use an adjective like sàmhach or modhail as an imperative, you have to stick bi in front i.e. bi sàmhach/modail. English is a terrible language to start with because, well, any word can be any part of speech, a noun can be a verb, an adjective a noun etc. But Gaelic is more picky about what's a verb and what isn't.

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How to find out the verbal noun form of a verb from the dictionary/imperative form? I'm trying to learn all verb tenses

Unread postby faoileag » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:48 pm

Verbal nouns ARE listed in both LearnGaelicDict and in Am Faclair Beag (and in virtually all other dictionaries too, immediately after the command/stem form).

In LearnGaelic, you have to click on the drop-down menu (double arrow) after each word to get the other forms of that word, incl. the verbal noun of verbs. (v.n.)

In Am Faclair Beag they are immediately under the command form. (gn.ag.)

Bi is an irregular verb, so has irregular forms. (You have to learn the forms, eg past tense, of irreg. verbs separately.)
Bi = command (bithibh= polite/plural), a bhith = verbal noun.

Bi / Bithibh sàmhach! = be quiet!

If you are using TAIC, you will meet the irregular verb forms en route.

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How to find out the verbal noun form of a verb from the dictionary/imperative form? I'm trying to learn all verb tenses

Unread postby faoileag » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:48 pm

Oops, akerbeltz just beat me to it! ;-)

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How to find out the verbal noun form of a verb from the dictionary/imperative form? I'm trying to learn all verb tenses

Unread postby Polygot2017 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:54 am

Ok thanks guys. I didn't realise you had to click the drop down menu to find the verbal noun form, I've got it figured out now. I can also see the verbal nouns in Faclair Beag dictionary no problem. It's a pity there are no sound files for the verbal noun forms (so far), but I suppose that will force me to improve my Gaelic reading skills to get the correct pronunciation.

As for irregular verbs, are there 10 or 12 irregular verbs in Gaelic? Different sources say different things. But anyway, the verb tables I've seen for irregular verbs seem to only give 3 forms - present, past and future, but is every tense of the irregular verbs irregular? If so, where can I find a list of all the tenses of them? I'll check out the lesson in TAIC about irregular verbs, perhaps that answers this question.

So basically once I've learned these 10/12 irregular verbs, every other verb just follows the usual patterns for each tense?

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How to find out the verbal noun form of a verb from the dictionary/imperative form? I'm trying to learn all verb tenses

Unread postby akerbeltz » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:34 am

'S e do bheatha! Dunno never counted, and I guess it depends on whether you count those which are partly regular or replaced by regular roots (like part of the abair paradigm being taken up by the regular can) as irregular or not. But about a dozen is right, so not a lot.

The best tables are in Brìgh nam Facal.

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How to find out the verbal noun form of a verb from the dictionary/imperative form? I'm trying to learn all verb tenses

Unread postby Polygot2017 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:53 am

Ok thanks. I was also wondering, is the stem/root of a verb the same thing as the imperative dictionary form? Because I've heard these terms being used and I want to be sure.

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How to find out the verbal noun form of a verb from the dictionary/imperative form? I'm trying to learn all verb tenses

Unread postby akerbeltz » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:23 pm

is the stem/root of a verb the same thing as the imperative dictionary form?


It depends on who you're talking to :priob: Colloquially these tend to mean the same thing but to a linguist, they're somewhat different things.

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How to find out the verbal noun form of a verb from the dictionary/imperative form? I'm trying to learn all verb tenses

Unread postby Polygot2017 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:46 pm

akerbeltz wrote:Source of the post
is the stem/root of a verb the same thing as the imperative dictionary form?


It depends on who you're talking to :priob: Colloquially these tend to mean the same thing but to a linguist, they're somewhat different things.


Ok, but for the purposes of learning Gàidhlig, can we say these are essentially the same thing?

Also, I'm looking at writing a post soon that does a simple summary of all the verbal tenses in Gàidhlig. It'd be great if I could get your feedback (and anyone elses too) on it to see if I'm on the right track.

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How to find out the verbal noun form of a verb from the dictionary/imperative form? I'm trying to learn all verb tenses

Unread postby GunChleoc » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:28 pm

Yes, the stem of regular verbs happens to be identical with the imperative singular, 2nd person.
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam