Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Ciamar a chanas mi.... / How do I say...
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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby Polygot2017 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:01 pm

So I've started learning common everyday verbs in Gàidhlig so I can build up my vocabulary and be able to express myself in a wide variety of situations. I'm learning both the imperative/citation and verbal noun forms for each verb, using the dictionaries at LearnGaelic.net and Faclair.com.

First of all, to be sure I've been learning these forms correctly, where they list the vn form with a little dash (-) before it, I take it that means you just add those letters onto the end of the imperative/citation form to make it into the verbal noun, whereas where the vn is listed without the dash, that is the verbal noun form. For example for do/make, these are listed as 'dean' (inf) and '-amh' (vn), so would that mean the vn form is therefore 'deanamh'?

However I've noticed sometimes it doesn't work like this....for example for 'tidy up', the inf form is 'sgioblaich', and it lists the vn as '-lachadh'. But this doesn't mean '-lachadh' is added onto 'sgioblaich' to form 'sgioblaichlachadh', does it? If so, where am I going wrong and why for some verbs can you just add it on, others you can't?

And for the other way, without the dash, for example 'say/tell' lists the inf as 'abair' and the vn as 'ràdh', so the vn is just 'ràdh' in this case and not 'abairràdh', correct?

Now the next part of my question - although both dictionaries mostly correspond to each other ok, I've noticed for some verbs they give different words, so I'm not sure which is correct. So far this is what I've noticed, can you tell me which is correct?...

1) Say/tell is listed as abair (inf), ràdh (vn), but also as can (inf) and cantainn (vn), which one is right, or are they interchangeable?

2) Speak/talk is listed as bruidhinn in Faclair (I think this is the same form for both the inf and vn?), but as bruidhnich (inf) and bruidhnichneachdainn (vn) on Learn Gaelic. Which is right?

3) Clean is listed as glan (inf) and glanadh (vn), but there's another form: cairt (inf) and cartadh (vn)

4) Close is listed as dùin (inf), dùnadh (vn), but there's another form: druid (inf) druideach (vn)

5) Arrive is listed as ruig/ruigsinn, but also as fruig/fruigheachd. Which do I use for talking about arriving somewhere (by train, foot etc)?

6) Tidy up is listed as sgioblaich/sgioblachadh, but also as baganaich/baganachadh - which do I use when talking about tidying up the house, a room etc?

Thanks.
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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby akerbeltz » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:24 pm

First of all, to be sure I've been learning these forms correctly, where they list the vn form with a little dash (-) before it, I take it that means you just add those letters onto the end of the infinitive/citation form to make it into the verbal noun, whereas where the vn is listed without the dash, that is the verbal noun form. Makes sense to me if so. However this only seems to work on Faclair, it's a bit more confusing on Learn Gaelic.


Correct, mostly it's a fairly simple case of sticking something on (bris » briseadh) but sometimes the changes are more radical (e.g. dùin » dùnadh, abair » ràdh) in which case the Faclair Beag lists either the last consonant in the root which is unchanged (fairich » -reachdainn » faireachdainn) or just the whole thing (abair » ràdh)

1) Say/tell is listed as abair (inf), ràdh (vn), but also as can (inf) and cantainn (vn), which one is right, or are they interchangeable?

Abair is a complicated one. It's what is called a suppletive verb which means it steals bits of its conjugation from other verbs - very much like go in English which used to be go » gang until it replaced gang with went which is actually the past of wend.

So for abair, the future and conditional forms are usually supplied by forms of can (canaidh, cha chan, a chanas, chanadh tu...), in the present either ràdh or cantainn is common and in the past, the forms of abair (thuirt...) dominate.

This is not explained in full in the Faclair Beag as it's, well, a dictionary and some things (like this one) really are a matter for a book on grammar.

2) Speak/talk is listed as bruidhinn in Faclair (I think this is the same form for both the inf and vn?), but as bruidhnich (inf) and bruidhnichneachdainn (vn) on Learn Gaelic. Which is right?
3) Clean is listed as glan (inf) and glanadh (vn), but there another form: cairt (inf) and cartadh (vn)
4) Close is listed as dùin (inf), dùnadh (vn), but there's another form: druid (inf) druideach (vn)
5) Arrive is listed as ruig/ruigsinn, but also as fruig/fruigheachd. Which do I use for talking about arriving somewhere (by train, foot etc)?


The answer to this is both easy and complicated. It's a question of regional usage. They are all right, it's just that not everyone uses the same word everywhere. It's a bit like asking if dove or dived is the "right" form. They both are right, it just depends.

There are endless debates about some of these words, especially as regards the verbal noun endings. In order to make that easier to learners, we've done (as much as possible and they're always expanding) maps indicating usage. So do a search for dùin and then click on the blue underlined dùin. It will bring up a map showing lots of pins. Each pin represents one speaker near that location who is on record using forms of dùin. Now in a different window, do the same for druid. You'll see that druid (the verb) is a form almost exclusive to Argyll. So when decided which is "right", check out these maps. If you see a strong regional pattern, avoid that form (unless you're aiming for a particular dialect). If there's an even-ish split (for example briseadh vs bristeadh), the choice is yours, pick one and stick with it.

Hope that helps!

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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby akerbeltz » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:27 pm

PS
3) Clean is listed as glan (inf) and glanadh (vn), but there's another form: cairt (inf) and cartadh (vn)

Not quite, cairt is given as clean out. But if you look at the other meanings associated with cairt (and the maps) you'll see its primary meanings are closer to mucking out that just cleaning and that cairt is much less common than glan.

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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby Polygot2017 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:41 pm

Ok that mostly all makes sense. I did notice the map with the pins, and was wondering what that was all about. Now that you've explained it, that's a great resource!

The only thing I'm still struggling with is when to add the letters after the dash (-) directly onto the citation form to get the vn, and when it doesn't work like that...e.g. for do/make, these are listed as 'dean' (inf) and '-amh' (vn), so would that mean the vn form is therefore 'deanamh'? But for 'tidy up', the inf form is 'sgioblaich', and it lists the vn as '-lachadh'. But this doesn't mean '-lachadh' is added onto 'sgioblaich' to form 'sgioblaichlachadh', does it? So is it mostly the longer works that don't work out exactly or is there another rule? Or could it even be that the forms starting with vowels add directly on, and the ones starting with consonants don't?

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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby akerbeltz » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:50 pm

Glad you like it!

The only thing I'm still struggling with is when to add the letters after the dash (-) directly onto the citation form to get the vn, and when it doesn't work like that...e.g. for do/make, these are listed as 'dean' (inf) and '-amh' (vn), so would that mean the vn form is therefore 'deanamh'? But for 'tidy up', the inf form is 'sgioblaich', and it lists the vn as '-lachadh'. But this doesn't mean '-lachadh' is added onto 'sgioblaich' to form 'sgioblaichlachadh', does it? So is it mostly the longer works that don't work out exactly or is there another rule?

In a verb entry, if there is a hyphen and no letter overlap, just slap the whole thing onto the root (dèan + amh » dèanamh) as you said. If there is a letter overlap (sgioblaich, ag. -lachadh) then then first letter in the ag. part replaces everything in the root, coming from the right, up until and including that letter
sgioblaich, ag. -lachadh
sgioblaic
sgioblai
sgiobla
sgiobl
sgiob + lachadh » sgioblachadh


It's a space saving measure, as some entries are already pretty big, esp. on mobile screens.

Make sense?

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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby Polygot2017 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:58 pm

akerbeltz wrote:Source of the post Glad you like it!

The only thing I'm still struggling with is when to add the letters after the dash (-) directly onto the citation form to get the vn, and when it doesn't work like that...e.g. for do/make, these are listed as 'dean' (inf) and '-amh' (vn), so would that mean the vn form is therefore 'deanamh'? But for 'tidy up', the inf form is 'sgioblaich', and it lists the vn as '-lachadh'. But this doesn't mean '-lachadh' is added onto 'sgioblaich' to form 'sgioblaichlachadh', does it? So is it mostly the longer works that don't work out exactly or is there another rule?

In a verb entry, if there is a hyphen and no letter overlap, just slap the whole thing onto the root (dèan + amh » dèanamh) as you said. If there is a letter overlap (sgioblaich, ag. -lachadh) then then first letter in the ag. part replaces everything in the root, coming from the right, up until and including that letter
sgioblaich, ag. -lachadh
sgioblaic
sgioblai
sgiobla
sgiobl
sgiob + lachadh » sgioblachadh


It's a space saving measure, as some entries are already pretty big, esp. on mobile screens.

Make sense?


Yes, that makes sense to me now you've explained it. It's easy when you know how, and downright confusing when you don't :-)

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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby akerbeltz » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:06 pm

Yay 8-)

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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby Polygot2017 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:04 pm

I've been continuing on with learning more verbs, and was wondering about the verb 'visit'. It seems that it's listed as tadhail/tadhal in the dictionaries, whereas in 'Speaking Our Language' they use 'chèilidh' for 'visiting' (I can't find the imperative/citation form for this, so what would that be?) The dictionaries also list tadhaill/tadhal as meaning 'travel'/'travelling', so which is correct here?

Also, where there is no verbal noun listed underneath the citation form, but instead just a tilde (~), I take it that means the verbal noun is the same as the citation form? (For example for 'say/tell' - bruidhinn)
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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby akerbeltz » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:52 pm

chèilidh is a lenited noun, there is no imperative for it, it's only ever a noun. But it can combine with rach air/dèan to form periphrastic (roundabout) expressions that equate to verbs in English. It's a bit like English not having a verb for "making a cake", you need to use "make" and "cake". So in Gaelic you "go on visit" or "make visit".

Both tadhail air and rach air chèilidh are correct, there are subtle differences in meaning and probably speaker/dialectal preferences.

If you put "visit" into the Faclair Beag and look beyond the simple verbs, you should see plenty of examples with cèilidh and other idioms.

In general, I think, you should try and think less of "which is the correct one" in learning any language. It would be better to think of categories like "which is the most common/generic" instead, because the answer to "which is the correct one" is almost invariably going to be "depends" :priob:

Also, where there is no verbal noun listed underneath the citation form, but instead just a tilde (~), I take it that means the verbal noun is the same as the citation form? (For example for 'say/tell' - bruidhinn)

Indeedy 8-)

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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby Polygot2017 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:33 pm

akerbeltz wrote:In general, I think, you should try and think less of "which is the correct one" in learning any language. It would be better to think of categories like "which is the most common/generic" instead, because the answer to "which is the correct one" is almost invariably going to be "depends" :priob:


Well that's a good point actually. Thanks as usual for your help. I'm sure I'll have some more questions to annoy you with soon :)

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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby Polygot2017 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:00 pm

There a few more verbs that I'm finding tricky:

Know/knowing - there seems to different ways of saying them, for example 'A bheil sibh eòlach air...?' and 'A bheil fhios agam?'. The former seems to be used in the sense of Do you know a certain person, whereas the latter seems more for facts - am I correct about this? I mean if you're asking someone whether they know the time or where something is (or any other fact), is eòlach incorrect, and is it wrong to use the latter with agam for asking if you know a person? In what other instances is eòlach used - what about for knowing a place, like a city or town etc? In Spanish there are 2 different verbs for 'to know' - conocer and saber (the former used for people/places, the latter for facts), so I wondered if this is the same distinction as for the 2 forms of 'know' in Gaelic?

Think/thinking - I've noticed there are different ways of saying these also, for example when asking 'what do you think?' I've seen 'Dè ur beachd?' and 'Dè ur beachd?', whereas I've also seen 'Chan eil mi a’ smaoineachadh gu bheil' for 'I don't think so'. Which one of these is best for 'think', especially if I want to express and ask about opinions, for example 'What do you think of/about (this city, this country, this song, this sport etc)?', and then replying with 'I think (it is good/fantastic etc)'.

Want/wanting - I've seen 'Tha mi ag iarraidh' for 'I want', and the question 'Dè tha sibh ag iarraidh?' for 'what do you want?', but I've also seen 'Tha mi airson' as well, for example 'Tha mi airson bruidhinn riut' etc. So what's the difference between 'Tha mi ag iarraidh' and 'Tha mi airson?', or are they basically interchangeable and just 2 different ways of saying the same thing?

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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby akerbeltz » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:16 pm

Know/knowing - there seems to different ways of saying them, for example 'A bheil sibh eòlach air...?' and 'A bheil fhios agam?'. The former seems to be used in the sense of Do you know a certain person, whereas the latter seems more for facts - am I correct about this? I mean if you're asking someone whether they know the time or where something is (or any other fact), is eòlach incorrect, and is it wrong to use the latter with agam for asking if you know a person? In what other instances is eòlach used - what about for knowing a place, like a city or town etc? In Spanish there are 2 different verbs for 'to know' - conocer and saber (the former used for people/places, the latter for facts), so I wondered if this is the same distinction as for the 2 forms of 'know' in Gaelic?

Gaelic just doesn't have a plain verb for this, they're all periphrastic expressions. fios + aig is about knowing facts, eòlach about being acquainted with something/someone, simplifying a bit.

Think/thinking - I've noticed there are different ways of saying these also, for example when asking 'what do you think?' I've seen 'Dè ur beachd?' and 'Dè ur beachd?', whereas I've also seen 'Chan eil mi a’ smaoineachadh gu bheil' for 'I don't think so'. Which one of these is best for 'think', especially if I want to express and ask about opinions, for example 'What do you think of/about (this city, this country, this song, this sport etc)?', and then replying with 'I think (it is good/fantastic etc)'.

Similar issue. (You have Dè ur beachd twice?). Beachd involves eliciting or expressing an opinion, with dè do bheachd nonetheless being the Gaelic equivalent of What do you think? Remember above all else that the translations and the meaning of a word/phrase in another language are not the same thing. Das Eisen schmieden solange es heiß ist gets *translated* as Make hay while the sun shines and Dèan maorach fhad 's a tha tràigh ann but that does not mean that Eisen means hay or maorach. Smaoineachadh is thinking in the sense of having a thought process or pondering stuff. And before you ask, smaoineachadh/smuaineachadh/smaointeachadh are all the same, they're regional variations.

Want/wanting - I've seen 'Tha mi ag iarraidh' for 'I want', and the question 'Dè tha sibh ag iarraidh?' for 'what do you want?', but I've also seen 'Tha mi airson' as well, for example 'Tha mi airson bruidhinn riut' etc. So what's the difference between 'Tha mi ag iarraidh' and 'Tha mi airson?', or are they basically interchangeable and just 2 different ways of saying the same thing?

Tha mi airson, which is a bit Lewis-y, expresses the intention, iarraidh is more like a direct wanting/requesting. Of course when it comes to *tr*nsl*t**n*, what this comes out as in English may vary.

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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby Polygot2017 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:59 pm

akerbeltz wrote: Similar issue. (You have Dè ur beachd twice?).


Sorry, I meant to type 'Dè ur beachd' and 'Dè do beachd'. What's the difference between these 2 forms anyway, with 'ur' and 'do'? I know it's something to do with plural/polite forms I think, but which is which? Also, presumably these questions mean 'what do you think?', but how about if I want to say 'what do you think about...? or 'what do you think of...?', does Gaelic have words for 'about' and 'of' in this instance?

akerbeltz wrote: Beachd involves eliciting or expressing an opinion, with dè do bheachd nonetheless being the Gaelic equivalent of What do you think? Remember above all else that the translations and the meaning of a word/phrase in another language are not the same thing. Das Eisen schmieden solange es heiß ist gets *translated* as Make hay while the sun shines and Dèan maorach fhad 's a tha tràigh ann but that does not mean that Eisen means hay or maorach. Smaoineachadh is thinking in the sense of having a thought process or pondering stuff. And before you ask, smaoineachadh/smuaineachadh/smaointeachadh are all the same, they're regional variations.


Ok so for 'what do you think about (this city, this book, this food etc)?' I use 'Dè ur/do beachd...', and it's incorrect to use smaoineachadh/smuaineachadh/smaointeachadh? How would 'dè ur/do beachd' be put into the first person form, i.e. 'I think that...(this book is interesting)' etc?

akerbeltz wrote: Tha mi airson, which is a bit Lewis-y, expresses the intention, iarraidh is more like a direct wanting/requesting. Of course when it comes to *tr*nsl*t**n*, what this comes out as in English may vary.


Ok, so is it possible to use 'airson' when requesting food and drinks, e.g. 'Tha mi airson cupa cofaidh' or 'Dè tha sibh ag airson?' etc, and what about using 'iarraidh' followed by another verb, eg 'Tha mi ag iarraidh Maighstir MacCaluim fhaicinn', 'tha mi ag iarraidh bruidhinn riut' or 'Tha mi ag iarraidh ithe' etc?

Finally for today, another phrase that seems a bit irregular is when saying 'I'm washing the dishes' - I've seen it in 'Speaking Our Language' as 'Tha mise a’ nighe na soithichean', but following grammar rules shouldn't it be Tha mi a’ nighe na soithichean'. Can 'mise' be used with verbs instead of 'mi', or is 'washing the dishes' just a bit of an irregular phrase?

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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby akerbeltz » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:58 pm

Sorry, I meant to type 'Dè ur beachd' and 'Dè do beachd'. What's the difference between these 2 forms anyway, with 'ur' and 'do'? I know it's something to do with plural/polite forms I think, but which is which?

Read this

Also, presumably these questions mean 'what do you think?', but how about if I want to say 'what do you think about...? or 'what do you think of...?', does Gaelic have words for 'about' and 'of' in this instance?

air or mu dhèidhinn, you'll probably hear mu dhèidhinn more these days than air

Ok so for 'what do you think about (this city, this book, this food etc)?' I use 'Dè ur/do beachd...', and it's incorrect to use smaoineachadh/smuaineachadh/smaointeachadh?

I would use dè do bheachd air a' ghuga seo but you'll probably hear dè tha thu a' smaoineachadh mun ghuga seo as well?

How would 'dè ur/do beachd' be put into the first person form, i.e. 'I think that...(this book is interesting)' etc?

Esshhh ... that doesn't work. You CAN say something like 's e mo bheachd gu bheil an guga seo tioram but that's very emphatically stating that YOUR opionion is... In idiomatic Gaelic, when English folk go I think that... you have to say saoilidh mi gu bheil... Yes, it's a future tense, it's just one of those things :)

Ok, so is it possible to use 'airson' when requesting food and drinks, e.g. 'Tha mi airson cupa cofaidh' or 'Dè tha sibh ag airson?' etc, and what about using 'iarraidh' followed by another verb, eg 'Tha mi ag iarraidh Maighstir MacCaluim fhaicinn', 'tha mi ag iarraidh bruidhinn riut' or 'Tha mi ag iarraidh ithe' etc?


Tha mi airson cupa cofaidh works. Dè tha sibh ag airson not, that's not grammatical, airson is not a verbal noun. You can say dè tha sibh air a shon but I don't think I've ever heard that in the context of what would you like to eat/drink. Your other example are ok.

Finally for today, another phrase that seems a bit irregular is when saying 'I'm washing the dishes' - I've seen it in 'Speaking Our Language' as 'Tha mise a’ nighe na soithichean', but following grammar rules shouldn't it be Tha mi a’ nighe na soithichean'. Can 'mise' be used with verbs instead of 'mi', or is 'washing the dishes' just a bit of an irregular phrase?

They're just emphatic pronouns. Check out this page, it's not specifically about the pronouns but they get mentioned.

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Some discrepancies between Learn Gaelic and Faclair dictionary for certain verbs, which is correct?

Unread postby GunChleoc » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:03 pm

For drinks, people usually ask "Dè ghabhas tu/sibh?" Then you can say "Gabhaidh mi cupa cofaidh"
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam


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