Help, again! (sorry guys)

Thèid a h-uile iarrtais eadar-theangachaidh air imrich a-bhos an-seo. Ma bhios thu seachd sgìth dhaibh, na rach ann an-seo.
neoni
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Unread postby neoni » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:13 pm

dè? chan eil "bu docha" ag obair mar sin :?

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Unread postby faoileag » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:26 pm

Nach e seòrsa 'is toil leam' a th' ann?

Tha mi eòlach air tro òrain (puirt-a-beul), m.e.

Sile, Sile, ’s i bu docha leam
Sile, Sile, am boireannach còir;
Sile, Sile, ’s i bu docha leam
Peigi nighean Uilleim cha gabh mi ri m’ bheò


(bho 'Dh’fhalbhainn Sgiobalta Sgiobalta', C-A MacPhee)

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Unread postby neoni » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:36 pm

's e buileach. 's e an coimeasach (comparative?) de "toil", a' ciallachadh an dearbh aon rud ri feàrr. cha chreid mi g' eil e ga chleachdadh cho tric sna laithean sa, tà.

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Unread postby Níall Beag » Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:05 am

neoni wrote:dè? chan eil "bu docha" ag obair mar sin :?

A bheil mi a' dol bun os ceann le may 's might? Dé an simplidh agus dé an rud eile. Bha mi a' smaoineachadh gun robh "may" subjunctive "might" ach 's docha gu bheil e an oposait[*] uaidh[*] rannd[*]. Thmmm... tha mi a' smaoineachadh gun robh mi ceàrr, agus gur e 's docha a bu choir dhomh sgriobhadh.

[*]Drochd litricheas Bheurla a-rithist.

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Unread postby GunChleoc » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:47 pm

Bu chòir dhut dòcha le ò fada a sgrìobhadh. Chan e an aon fhacal a th' ann docha agus dòcha.

a-rèir Cailean Mark:

dòcha = comp form of obsolete adj dogh = more / most likely / probable

docha = comp form of toigh = more / most dear, esteemed, valuable, preferable
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

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Unread postby An Gobaire » Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:47 pm

Chan eil e "obsolete" idir. Cleachd e!
Mar eisimpleir, aig bòrd bìdh.


"Dè bu dòcha leat? Teatha no cofaidh?
Dèan buil cheart de na fhuair thu!

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Unread postby faoileag » Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:55 pm

'S e am facal 'dogh' (freumh) a tha 'obsolete' a-rèir C. Mark, chan e 'dòcha' fhèin.

''obsolete adj dogh ''

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Unread postby Stìophan » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:42 pm

Keeping things simple and in line with the original question; the construction 's urrainn do shouldn't be used when expressing permission (which is what the original question implies) that's where faod comes in. 'S urrainn do should be used in the sense of ability.

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Unread postby horogheallaidh » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:06 pm

tha thu ceart dha riribh - 's e mi-fhin a bha cearr - faodaidh tu a cumail - duilich!

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Unread postby JoP » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:00 pm

It is funny how so simple a phrase can be so difficult to tr*nsl*t*. I always thought that 'faodaidh' indicated permission and 'urainn' capability

so that

faodhaidh tu a cumail = you may take her

faodhaidh tu a' chumail = you may take him

dh'fhaodhaidh tu a cumail = you might take her

's urainn dhut a cumail = you can take her

b' urainn dhut a cumail = you could take her

thu urrainn cumail i = able you she taking (I presume that was a joke, please have pity on us poor learners I spent about half an hour trying to make sense of it)

Have I got that right or are there nuances that i don't understand?

and

faodhaidh tu a dhol = you may go

and in this case the 'a' stands for 'to' and not 'her'

is that right

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Unread postby Níall Beag » Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:15 pm

It's actually quite a common mistake for learners to use "urrainn" when the should use "faodaidh" and once again, I'll tell you why.

Because "may" is a word referring to possibility and "can" relates to ability.

"I may have gone there" = "it is possible that I have gone there (but I can't say for sure)"
"I could have gone there" = "I was able to go there (but I chose not to)"

Neither of these words, in essence, really refers to permission.

It just so happens that some posh gits decided that the correct word for asking permission was "may". I've no idea why they did this, but I certainly remember my mum's sarcastic response to any "can I" question: "Well obviously you can, but the question is whether you may or not."

But if we look at the corpus[*] evidence, we see that the overwhelming majority of people actually say "can". The word "may" is generally only used as possibility.

Interestingly, if we look at the evidence of "may" as permission, we find that 95% of all such use is carried out by either:
a) A child
b) A parent or teacher "correcting" I child who has just used can
c) A parent of teacher in the presence of a child.

The remaining 5% is vanishingly small in comparison with the "can I?" crowd. (In fact, all 100% is pretty insignificant against the weight of "can I?" evidence.)

So the student who is told that "faodaidh mi...?" means "may I...? doesn't have anything meaningful to relate it to. To the teacher it may appear as though it reduces ambiguity, but the evidence from student errors is that it's just wrong.

[*] a corpus is just loads of text that people have written or transcribed from speech. It is now possible to look at language objectively and mathematically. In general, it is the pedants that are wrong. "May" is one of many examples. See also "must".
Last edited by Níall Beag on Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby Níall Beag » Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:24 pm

JoP wrote:faodhaidh tu a dhol = you may go

and in this case the 'a' stands for 'to' and not 'her'

is that right

I thought it was just "faodaidh tu dol".

As far as I know, the "a +lenition thing" only happens when there's a noun working with the verbal noun.

Using colours:
Faodaidh tu dol.
You can (are allowed to) go.

Faodaidh tu pinnt a cheannaich.
You can (are allowed to) buy a pint.

Chan fhaod tu uisge beatha a dh'òl.
You can't (aren't allowed to) drink whisky.

Chan fhaod tu falbh.
You can't (aren't allowed to) leave.

ie. The green verbal noun only gets a* when there's another green noun.
Last edited by Níall Beag on Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby GunChleoc » Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:41 pm

Níall Beag wrote:
JoP wrote:faodhaidh tu a dhol = you may go

and in this case the 'a' stands for 'to' and not 'her'

is that right

I thought it was just "faodaidh tu dol".

As far as I know, the "a +lenition thing" only happens when there's a noun working with the verbal noun.

As far as I know, dol is an exception, and you say dol or a dhol depending on dialect - don't ask me which one is which though :lol:

For all the other verbs, you are correct. :D

Oh, and it's pinnt a cheannach(d)
Oileanach chànan chuthachail

Na dealbhan agam

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Unread postby horogheallaidh » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:15 pm

to be picky - channainsa faodaidh tu falbh an aite faodaidh tu dol

abairt nas fhearr anns a ghaidhlig nam bheachdsa ?

oh agus chan e falamh ach falbh - falamh - empty ;)

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Unread postby GunChleoc » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:39 pm

JoP wrote:thu urrainn cumail i = able you she taking (I presume that was a joke, please have pity on us poor learners I spent about half an hour trying to make sense of it)

Tha thu ceart, 'b i fealla-dhà a bh' innte
You are right, it was a joke
Oileanach chànan chuthachail

Na dealbhan agam


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