Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

An toil leat ceòl, bàrdachd no ealain sam bith eile? Am faca tu rudeigin inntinneach air an TBh? Innse dhuinn air / Do you like music, poetry or any other art form? Did you see anything interesting on the telly? Tell us about it
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Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby GlitteringSkelly » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:01 pm

Feasgar math, and thanks again / mòran taing for all the ideas in the tips thread. I'm going to follow the suggestion of finding a book that works for me and aim to go steadily through that.

At the same time, it'd be good to do something a bit more freeform and I wonder if anyone else would like to join in on a Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain / Gaelic Song of the Week discussion activity here on the Forum? We could take turns in selecting a song, providing links to the music and the lyrics, and then share some discussion around the language. I think this could work at different levels - if you're almost a complete beginner (as in my case) you could usefully take away one or two new words or phrases (songs always provide such a memorable context for vocabulary) or if you're more advanced, some interesting points of grammar etc.

Hope this idea will be of interest and I'm going to dive straight in and suggest a first Òran na Seachdain in a post to follow this one!



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Re: Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby GlitteringSkelly » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:04 pm

Halo a-rithist everyone, as suggested in my previous post, it would be great to share some regular discussion around song lyrics. To get the ball rolling, how about we look at 'Alba' by Runrig. Not only a fantastic song with meaningful lyrics, but also there is a version on YouTube with really clear presentation of the words in both Gaelic and English:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSKAnXB3ujY

There's also a version here with Gaelic only lyrics below the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeoPaAj8kOI

as well as numerous other ones - maybe I'll watch them all by the end of the week!

As a beginner, it's heartening to recognise a few key words - liath, lochan, gleann, Dùn Èideann, taigh, fàilte etc. It's also of course an invaluable drill for the correct pronunciation of Alba :)

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Re: Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby Fear na coille » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:16 pm

'S toil leam an o\ran sin gu mo/r..

'S toil leam an t-o\ran sin gu mo/r..

A bheil a' chiad no an darna ceart?

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Re: Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby faoileag » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:24 pm

An t-oran: masculine nouns beginning with a vowel take the t- after the article in the subject / basic form (which is what you need after 'S toil leam). :D

Feminine ones don't - compare 'S toil leam an eaglais.


Ceist mhath! Good question! :D



Agus beachd gle mhath, leis an oran!! :lol:

Good idea with the song! (Note 'an oran' here - dative case, no t- needed before vowels)


(Apologies for lack of accents - elderly foreign laptop and no time to play around :( )

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Re: Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby Fear na coille » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:38 pm

'S toil leam an t-o\ran..
Nominative

Tha ruideagan cea\rr leis an o\ran..
Dative

Mo\ran taing Fhaoileag :)

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Re: Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby akerbeltz » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:24 pm

Tha dà shreath againn (Beurla is Gàidhlig) a chuidicheas sibh leis na stràcan, eadar dà sgeul viewforum.php?f=12

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Re: Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby Fear na coille » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:19 am

A rithist:
'S toil leam an t-òran..

Tha ruideagan ceàrr leis an òran..

Tha sin nas fhearr!

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Re: Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby GunChleoc » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:53 pm

Glè mhath!

When you listen to this song, listen to how the rythm of the vocals moves with the rhythm of the language. I found it impossible to sing along to the verses properly until I had enough Gaelic to understand what I was actually singing.

BTW we have the lyrics to all the Gaelic Runrig-songs published on our homepage - it's the only version in the world with all the missing sràcan put in! Any remaining typos by yours truly :lol:

Here's the lyrics to Alba:

http://www.foramnagaidhlig.net/index.php?page=54

As a learner I'm pretty anal about accents because they are very important for vowel length in Gaelic ;)

You can listen out for the word pàiste at the end of the last verse - nuair bha mi ’nam phàisd. In modern spelling, nuair bha mi nam phàiste. Pàiste is the Gaelic word for "child"; clann is used for a group of children. When talking about a single child, Gaelic also likes to be specific as to gender, using balach/nighean.
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

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Re: Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby Fear na coille » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:54 am

Chluich mi an t-òran aig a' bhanais againn an Dàmhair seo chaidh. Uill, chluich an DJ co-dhiù, 's dh'èist a h-uile duile a b'ann. 8-)

Ma 's math a' Ghàidhlig agam sgrìobh mi:

I played the song at our wedding this past October. Well, the DJ played (it) anyway, and everyone there listened.

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Re: Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby conmaol » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:16 am

Just adding a short summary anns a' Bheurla (in English) about what was being discussed in messages #3 through #7, in case anyone is confused.

Fear a' choille wanted to know whether the correct way of saying "I like that song" in Gaelic is "Is toil leam an t-òran sin" or "Is toil leam an òran sin". The first is correct. In the nominative case, "that song" is "an t-òran sin", since "òran" (song) is a masculine noun.

Akerbeltz then pointed out that there is a help page for people who are having problems using accents (na stràcan) on their computer keyboard - viewtopic.php?f=12&t=32

Tip for Mac users - if you are using the standard British keyboard, you can get the grave accent by holding down ALT and ` at the same time, then releasing them together and then typing the vowel you want.

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Re: Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby conmaol » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:40 am

Looking at the first line of this song I learned something new.
  • I knew that "seòl" is a verb meaning "to sail", whose verbal noun is "seòladh" (sailing), as in "Bha sinn a' seòladh (air sgiath nan neòil)" - We were sailing (on the wing of the clouds). Or maybe "Bha sinn a' seòladh nan neòil" - We were sailing the clouds.
  • And I knew that "seòladh" is a (masculine) noun meaning "an address", as in "Dé an seòladh a th' agaibh?" (What is your address?).
But I hadn't made the connection between the two. Turns out that the meaning of "seòl" in Gaelic has been extended to also cover "guiding/directing", i.e. showing someone how to get somewhere. So "an seòladh agam" (my address) is literally something like "directions which would allow you to sail to my home", even if my home cannot be reached by boat. Looking up my dictionary, I see that "seòlaidhean" (the plural form - "sailings") also means "guidelines" (e.g. "seòlaidhean airson teagasg na Gàidhlig" - guidelines for teaching Gaelic), and that "seòladh" also can mean "guidance" - "seòladh spioradail" (spiritual guidance).

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Re: Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby Níall Beag » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:49 pm

conmaol wrote:Looking at the first line of this song I learned something new.
  • I knew that "seòl" is a verb meaning "to sail", whose verbal noun is "seòladh" (sailing), as in "Bha sinn a' seòladh (air sgiath nan neòil)" - We were sailing (on the wing of the clouds).
  • And I knew that "seòladh" is a (masculine) noun meaning "an address", as in "Dé an seòladh a th' agaibh?" (What is your address?).
But I hadn't made the connection between the two. Turns out that the meaning of "seòl" in Gaelic has been extended to also cover "guiding/directing", i.e. showing someone how to get somewhere. So "an seòladh agam" (my address) is literally something like "directions which would allow you to sail to my home", even if my home cannot be reached by boat. Looking up my dictionary, I see that "seòlaidhean" (the plural form - "sailings") also means "guidelines" (e.g. "seòlaidhean airson teagasg na Gàidhlig" - guidelines for teaching Gaelic), and that "seòladh" also can mean "guidance" - "seòladh spioradail" (spiritual guidance).

And "guidance" is near synonymous with "direction", which is another meaning of "seòladh" -- so if you take all the meanings together, you get this sort of mush of "steering", "directing", "pointing".

(Incidentally, the Spanish for "address" is "dirección" -- yes, direction!)

Edit:
Actually, that made me start thinking about the importance of technology and geography in defining language.
Because in English, you ask for "the way to" a place, and "way" originally meant "road" (hence motorway, railway, pathway, right-of-way, (inland) waterway). We're a land-based culture defined mostly by wheels.

Yet the remaining Gaels are islanders and coast-dwellers. Many towns only got their first proper roads after the second world war, so their "seòlaidhean" were the near-universal means of travel, while we all relied on "ways".

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Re: Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby GlitteringSkelly » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:04 pm

Mòran tàing for the fascinating discussion around seòladh – I won’t have any problem remembering that word now.

I’ve been looking again at the lyrics to Alba and one of the first things I noticed was that although I’ve been up enough Munros to know beinn as mountain I wouldn’t have recognised beanntan as the plural. This reminds me of the problem I remember from brief forays into learning Gaelic in the past which is how to track down the tr*nsl*t**n of a plural using the dictionary – as usually you have to go via the singular but sometimes they look so different that you don’t know what you’re looking for. Not sure if there are any tips or general rules here to apply?

Anyway, some good plurals in this song – have noted neòil/clouds, domhain/heavens, acraichean/acres, lochan/lochs, coilltean/forests, làmhan/hands, cuibhlean/wheels, fàsaichean/lands.

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Re: Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby akerbeltz » Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:13 pm

how to track down the tr*nsl*** of a plural using the dictionary


Easy, punch it into the Faclair Beag, you'll usually end up at the right root. That's because we have what's called a lemmatizer or lexical database, which is essentially a big table which, in this case, lists beinn, bheinn, beinne, bheinne, beanntan, bheanntan, beanntaibh, bheanntaibh etc as forms of the word beinn, so when you punch in beanntan, it goes and checks that table and, ta-da, gives you beinn.

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Re: Òran Gàidhlig na Seachdain?

Unread postby Broganta » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:56 pm

conmaol wrote:Just adding a short summary anns a' Bheurla (in English) about what was being discussed in messages #3 through #7, in case anyone is confused.

Fear a' choille wanted to know whether the correct way of saying "I like that song" in Gaelic is "Is toil leam an t-òran sin" or "Is toil leam an òran sin". The first is correct. In the nominative case, "that song" is "an t-òran sin", since "òran" (song) is a masculine noun.

Akerbeltz then pointed out that there is a help page for people who are having problems using accents (na stràcan) on their computer keyboard - viewtopic.php?f=12&t=32

Tip for Mac users - if you are using the standard British keyboard, you can get the grave accent by holding down ALT and ` at the same time, then releasing them together and then typing the vowel you want.
Last edited by Broganta on Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.