Le / leis before gach
-
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:16 pm
- Language Level: Fluent
- Corrections: I'm fine either way
- Location: Europe
Le / leis before gach
Hi,
I received a semi-official email to day which ended "Leis gach deagh dhùrachd", which I found surprising as I would have thought / was always taught that it should be "Le gach deagh dhùrachd" and that "leis" is only used in such expressions before the definite article.
Happy to be corrected, of course, as I am and always will be a Gaelic learner...
M
I received a semi-official email to day which ended "Leis gach deagh dhùrachd", which I found surprising as I would have thought / was always taught that it should be "Le gach deagh dhùrachd" and that "leis" is only used in such expressions before the definite article.
Happy to be corrected, of course, as I am and always will be a Gaelic learner...
M
-
- Posts: 693
- Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:47 am
- Language Level: Fileanta
- Corrections: Please correct my grammar
- Location: Saitama, an Iapan
- Contact:
Re: Le / leis before gach
It is always "leis" before "gach".
Le deagh dhùrachd.
Leis gach deagh dhùrachd.
Le deagh dhùrachd.
Leis gach deagh dhùrachd.
Dèan buil cheart de na fhuair thu!
-
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:16 pm
- Language Level: Fluent
- Corrections: I'm fine either way
- Location: Europe
Re: Le / leis before gach
An Gobaire wrote:It is always "leis" before "gach".
Le deagh dhùrachd.
Leis gach deagh dhùrachd.
It most certainly isn't, otherwise I wouldn't have asked!
Chaidh iarraidh orm seo a sgaoileadh .
Le gach deagh dhùrachd
Catriona NicIain
Stiùiriche Cùrsa
Dioplòma anns na Meadhanan Gàidhlig
Sabhal Mòr Ostaig
Le gach deagh dhùrachd,
Mira Byrne
Iar-Mhanaidsear nan Goireasan
01471-888 675
Sabhal Mòr Ostaig
Ionad Nàiseanta na Gàidhlig
Slèite
An t-Eilean Sgitheanach
IV44 8RQ
Nach tig sibh thugam ma bhios ceist no beachd sam bith agaibh air a’ chuspair seo.
Le gach dùrachd
Sgotaidh
Ceann-suidhe
Comann nan Oileanach
M.s.a.a.
-
- Posts: 1486
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:00 pm
- Corrections: I'm fine either way
- Location: Faisg air Gleann Rathais
Re: Le / leis before gach
It's a matter of choice. Some folk stick with "le" before "gach", some prefer "leis". I think "le" is more common, but both are acceptable.
-
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:16 pm
- Language Level: Fluent
- Corrections: I'm fine either way
- Location: Europe
Re: Le / leis before gach
Fair enough. It's probably one of those Gaelic things where both are perfectly acceptable, like "dà ghealaich" being pedantically correct according to old grammar books, though everyone nowadays says "dà ghealach"...
-
- Rianaire
- Posts: 1781
- Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:26 am
- Language Level: Barail am broinn baraille
- Corrections: Please don't analyse my Gaelic
- Location: Glaschu
- Contact:
Re: Le / leis before gach
It's the other way round it would seem, DASG has 38 for le gach but 359 for leis gach.It's a matter of choice. Some folk stick with "le" before "gach", some prefer "leis". I think "le" is more common, but both are acceptable.
I think the -s form is the older. also cf anns gach which definitely always takes the -s form
Do, or do not. There is no try.
★ Am Faclair Beag ★ iGàidhlig, do charaid airson bathar-bog na Gàidhlig: Firefox, Thunderbird, LibreOffice, Skype is mòran a bharrachd ★
★ Am Faclair Beag ★ iGàidhlig, do charaid airson bathar-bog na Gàidhlig: Firefox, Thunderbird, LibreOffice, Skype is mòran a bharrachd ★
-
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:16 pm
- Language Level: Fluent
- Corrections: I'm fine either way
- Location: Europe
Re: Le / leis before gach
A bit of research reveals the entry for "gach" in Colin Mark's dictionary (p321) which says: “The preps ann, a, le, ri and gu take the s form before gach: Leis gach adhartas… anns gach suidheachadh… ris gach duine… às gach doras…”
Of course, some English grammars will insist that "none" must take a singular verb as in "None of them was there" despite the fact that the vast majority of English speakers would say "None of them were there"...
Does anyone else think that "Leis gach deagh dhùrachd" just sounds wrong, even though it's clearly perfectly acceptable and correct...?
Of course, some English grammars will insist that "none" must take a singular verb as in "None of them was there" despite the fact that the vast majority of English speakers would say "None of them were there"...
Does anyone else think that "Leis gach deagh dhùrachd" just sounds wrong, even though it's clearly perfectly acceptable and correct...?
-
- Rianaire
- Posts: 1781
- Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:26 am
- Language Level: Barail am broinn baraille
- Corrections: Please don't analyse my Gaelic
- Location: Glaschu
- Contact:
Re: Le / leis before gach
As a learner, I'm always suspicious of my linguistic 'feelings', those are only reliable for native speakers really. I have done some Google searches and whatever our feeling, leis + gach + prefixed adjective seems to win out though it's not a common pattern, perhaps explaining some of the confusion:
leis gach fìor (5) including some really old sources
le gach fìor (0)
leis gach sàr (0)
le gach sàr (0)
leis gach droch (3)
le gach droch (6) mostly Irish though
ris gach deagh (1)
ri gach deagh (0)
anns gach deagh (5)
anns gach deagh (0)
Perhaps this is handled differently in Irish and there's some knock-on
leis gach fìor (5) including some really old sources
le gach fìor (0)
leis gach sàr (0)
le gach sàr (0)
leis gach droch (3)
le gach droch (6) mostly Irish though
ris gach deagh (1)
ri gach deagh (0)
anns gach deagh (5)
anns gach deagh (0)
Perhaps this is handled differently in Irish and there's some knock-on
Do, or do not. There is no try.
★ Am Faclair Beag ★ iGàidhlig, do charaid airson bathar-bog na Gàidhlig: Firefox, Thunderbird, LibreOffice, Skype is mòran a bharrachd ★
★ Am Faclair Beag ★ iGàidhlig, do charaid airson bathar-bog na Gàidhlig: Firefox, Thunderbird, LibreOffice, Skype is mòran a bharrachd ★
-
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:16 pm
- Language Level: Fluent
- Corrections: I'm fine either way
- Location: Europe
Re: Le / leis before gach
Yes, I'm sure you're right!
From a personal point of view, I'm going to (try to) use "leis gach" from now on as, as you have shown, it's clearly by far the more common usage, especially in written Gaelic. One more step along the road towards fluency...
From a personal point of view, I'm going to (try to) use "leis gach" from now on as, as you have shown, it's clearly by far the more common usage, especially in written Gaelic. One more step along the road towards fluency...
-
- Rianaire
- Posts: 1432
- Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:58 pm
- Language Level: Fluent (non-native)
- Corrections: I'm fine either way
- Location: Sruighlea, Alba
- Contact:
Re: Le / leis before gach
Indeed. As a learner of many languages, I've often been told not to worry about rules, and just do what "sounds right". Well, what sounds right to me is English -- everything else sounds wrong, so that's no use for a learner.akerbeltz wrote:As a learner, I'm always suspicious of my linguistic 'feelings', those are only reliable for native speakers really.
The thing that is missing from a lot of rules is that they talk about definiteness in terms of articles only... and then add on little amendments to deal with things like possessives, proper nouns etc. There are certain things that are inherently definite, and gach is one of them.
Consider:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/alba/oran/people/a ... acneacail/Aig an àm sin bha e mar àbhaist gum biodh leth-amadain ri fhaicinn aig taobh teallaich ann an taigh gach uasal sa Ghàidhealtachd.
In English, that italicised part would be "in the house of every nobleman in the Highlands," but there's no article in there... because "gach" is a definite word. Each member of a group is very specific. Specific... specified... defined... definite.
The same is true in Irish, seemingly, where they would say "Is é X máthair gach oilc" for various values of X -- "X is the mother of all evils", with no apparent article -- gach again being inherently definite.
-
- Rianaire
- Posts: 1432
- Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:58 pm
- Language Level: Fluent (non-native)
- Corrections: I'm fine either way
- Location: Sruighlea, Alba
- Contact:
Re: Le / leis before gach
Oh, and there's a Scottish Gaelic example in the DASG too:
that (the) Gaelic is/was [the] mother of every one of them
http://www.dasg.ac.uk/corpus/concordanc ... 9uoq9&uT=ygu ' m b ' i a Ghaelic màthair gach aon diubh
that (the) Gaelic is/was [the] mother of every one of them
-
- Posts: 693
- Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:47 am
- Language Level: Fileanta
- Corrections: Please correct my grammar
- Location: Saitama, an Iapan
- Contact:
Re: Le / leis before gach
I should have written: "It is always correctly written as leis before gach."
You will also find people writing things like: "bruidhinn ri na (daoine)", when it is correctly meant to be "ris na daoine", for example.
It's understandable why though.
You will also find people writing things like: "bruidhinn ri na (daoine)", when it is correctly meant to be "ris na daoine", for example.
It's understandable why though.
MarcMacUilleim wrote:An Gobaire wrote:It is always "leis" before "gach".
Le deagh dhùrachd.
Leis gach deagh dhùrachd.
It most certainly isn't, otherwise I wouldn't have asked!
Chaidh iarraidh orm seo a sgaoileadh .
Le gach deagh dhùrachd
Catriona NicIain
Stiùiriche Cùrsa
Dioplòma anns na Meadhanan Gàidhlig
Sabhal Mòr Ostaig
Le gach deagh dhùrachd,
Mira Byrne
Iar-Mhanaidsear nan Goireasan
01471-888 675
Sabhal Mòr Ostaig
Ionad Nàiseanta na Gàidhlig
Slèite
An t-Eilean Sgitheanach
IV44 8RQ
Nach tig sibh thugam ma bhios ceist no beachd sam bith agaibh air a’ chuspair seo.
Le gach dùrachd
Sgotaidh
Ceann-suidhe
Comann nan Oileanach
M.s.a.a.
Dèan buil cheart de na fhuair thu!
-
- Rianaire
- Posts: 4607
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 am
- Language Level: Mion-chùiseach
- Corrections: Please correct my grammar
- Location: Dùthaich mo chridhe
- Contact:
Re: Le / leis before gach
Actually, we have a different rule at work here: In a string of nouns, only the last one can carry the genitive case and a definite article.Níall Beag wrote:Consider:http://www.bbc.co.uk/alba/oran/people/a ... acneacail/Aig an àm sin bha e mar àbhaist gum biodh leth-amadain ri fhaicinn aig taobh teallaich ann an taigh gach uasal sa Ghàidhealtachd.
In English, that italicised part would be "in the house of every nobleman in the Highlands," but there's no article in there... because "gach" is a definite word. Each member of a group is very specific. Specific... specified... defined... definite.
ann an taigh an daoine - in (the/a) house of the man
ann an taigh daoine - in (the/a) house of a man
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam
Na dealbhan agam
-
- Posts: 939
- Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:33 pm
- Language Level: beginner
- Corrections: Please correct my grammar
- Location: An Ruis, St Petersburg
- Contact:
Re: Le / leis before gach
...ann an taigh an duine / nan daoine ?
Mur eil mi air mo mhòr-mhealladh.
Seadh, chan urrainn do 'anns an' a bhith ann co-dhiù
Mur eil mi air mo mhòr-mhealladh.
Seadh, chan urrainn do 'anns an' a bhith ann co-dhiù
Eilidh -- Luchag Bhochd
-
- Rianaire
- Posts: 1432
- Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:58 pm
- Language Level: Fluent (non-native)
- Corrections: I'm fine either way
- Location: Sruighlea, Alba
- Contact:
Re: Le / leis before gach
Ah yes... I see what you mean.... there's me parroting the "double definite rule" that I'd been told rather than thinking about the actual language.GunChleoc wrote:Actually, we have a different rule at work here: In a string of nouns, only the last one can carry the genitive case and a definite article.Níall Beag wrote:Consider:http://www.bbc.co.uk/alba/oran/people/a ... acneacail/Aig an àm sin bha e mar àbhaist gum biodh leth-amadain ri fhaicinn aig taobh teallaich ann an taigh gach uasal sa Ghàidhealtachd.
In English, that italicised part would be "in the house of every nobleman in the Highlands," but there's no article in there... because "gach" is a definite word. Each member of a group is very specific. Specific... specified... defined... definite.
ann an taigh an daoine - in (the/a) house of the man
ann an taigh daoine - in (the/a) house of a man
Anyway, as always, I think the working of the genitive here is made clearer by using the English possessive.
ann an taigh an daoine - in the man's house
ann an taigh daoine - in a man's house
Notice in English that the possessive becomes the determiner* for the main noun.
[ *Determiner: class of words including definite and indefinite articles, and anything that can be substituted for them. eg the red house, that red house, his red house, twenty-five red houses etc ]
"Gach" is determiner, just as "a h-uile" is, just as "mo"/"do" etc are.
Which brings back to the point of confusion, as the "-s" has been disappearing before possessives too -- "nam aonar le mo smuaintean" (late 20th century) vs "Grad a b' aill leis mo lamh ag aomadh" (James MacPherson's book of Ossianic poetry, published early 19th century).