Help, again! (sorry guys)
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- Rianaire
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A bheil mi a' dol bun os ceann le may 's might? Dé an simplidh agus dé an rud eile. Bha mi a' smaoineachadh gun robh "may" subjunctive "might" ach 's docha gu bheil e an oposait[*] uaidh[*] rannd[*]. Thmmm... tha mi a' smaoineachadh gun robh mi ceàrr, agus gur e 's docha a bu choir dhomh sgriobhadh.neoni wrote:dè? chan eil "bu docha" ag obair mar sin
[*]Drochd litricheas Bheurla a-rithist.
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- Rianaire
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Bu chòir dhut dòcha le ò fada a sgrìobhadh. Chan e an aon fhacal a th' ann docha agus dòcha.
a-rèir Cailean Mark:
dòcha = comp form of obsolete adj dogh = more / most likely / probable
docha = comp form of toigh = more / most dear, esteemed, valuable, preferable
a-rèir Cailean Mark:
dòcha = comp form of obsolete adj dogh = more / most likely / probable
docha = comp form of toigh = more / most dear, esteemed, valuable, preferable
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam
Na dealbhan agam
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- Maor
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It is funny how so simple a phrase can be so difficult to tr*nsl*t*. I always thought that 'faodaidh' indicated permission and 'urainn' capability
so that
faodhaidh tu a cumail = you may take her
faodhaidh tu a' chumail = you may take him
dh'fhaodhaidh tu a cumail = you might take her
's urainn dhut a cumail = you can take her
b' urainn dhut a cumail = you could take her
thu urrainn cumail i = able you she taking (I presume that was a joke, please have pity on us poor learners I spent about half an hour trying to make sense of it)
Have I got that right or are there nuances that i don't understand?
and
faodhaidh tu a dhol = you may go
and in this case the 'a' stands for 'to' and not 'her'
is that right
so that
faodhaidh tu a cumail = you may take her
faodhaidh tu a' chumail = you may take him
dh'fhaodhaidh tu a cumail = you might take her
's urainn dhut a cumail = you can take her
b' urainn dhut a cumail = you could take her
thu urrainn cumail i = able you she taking (I presume that was a joke, please have pity on us poor learners I spent about half an hour trying to make sense of it)
Have I got that right or are there nuances that i don't understand?
and
faodhaidh tu a dhol = you may go
and in this case the 'a' stands for 'to' and not 'her'
is that right
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- Rianaire
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It's actually quite a common mistake for learners to use "urrainn" when the should use "faodaidh" and once again, I'll tell you why.
Because "may" is a word referring to possibility and "can" relates to ability.
"I may have gone there" = "it is possible that I have gone there (but I can't say for sure)"
"I could have gone there" = "I was able to go there (but I chose not to)"
Neither of these words, in essence, really refers to permission.
It just so happens that some posh gits decided that the correct word for asking permission was "may". I've no idea why they did this, but I certainly remember my mum's sarcastic response to any "can I" question: "Well obviously you can, but the question is whether you may or not."
But if we look at the corpus[*] evidence, we see that the overwhelming majority of people actually say "can". The word "may" is generally only used as possibility.
Interestingly, if we look at the evidence of "may" as permission, we find that 95% of all such use is carried out by either:
a) A child
b) A parent or teacher "correcting" I child who has just used can
c) A parent of teacher in the presence of a child.
The remaining 5% is vanishingly small in comparison with the "can I?" crowd. (In fact, all 100% is pretty insignificant against the weight of "can I?" evidence.)
So the student who is told that "faodaidh mi...?" means "may I...? doesn't have anything meaningful to relate it to. To the teacher it may appear as though it reduces ambiguity, but the evidence from student errors is that it's just wrong.
[*] a corpus is just loads of text that people have written or transcribed from speech. It is now possible to look at language objectively and mathematically. In general, it is the pedants that are wrong. "May" is one of many examples. See also "must".
Because "may" is a word referring to possibility and "can" relates to ability.
"I may have gone there" = "it is possible that I have gone there (but I can't say for sure)"
"I could have gone there" = "I was able to go there (but I chose not to)"
Neither of these words, in essence, really refers to permission.
It just so happens that some posh gits decided that the correct word for asking permission was "may". I've no idea why they did this, but I certainly remember my mum's sarcastic response to any "can I" question: "Well obviously you can, but the question is whether you may or not."
But if we look at the corpus[*] evidence, we see that the overwhelming majority of people actually say "can". The word "may" is generally only used as possibility.
Interestingly, if we look at the evidence of "may" as permission, we find that 95% of all such use is carried out by either:
a) A child
b) A parent or teacher "correcting" I child who has just used can
c) A parent of teacher in the presence of a child.
The remaining 5% is vanishingly small in comparison with the "can I?" crowd. (In fact, all 100% is pretty insignificant against the weight of "can I?" evidence.)
So the student who is told that "faodaidh mi...?" means "may I...? doesn't have anything meaningful to relate it to. To the teacher it may appear as though it reduces ambiguity, but the evidence from student errors is that it's just wrong.
[*] a corpus is just loads of text that people have written or transcribed from speech. It is now possible to look at language objectively and mathematically. In general, it is the pedants that are wrong. "May" is one of many examples. See also "must".
Last edited by Níall Beag on Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Rianaire
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I thought it was just "faodaidh tu dol".JoP wrote:faodhaidh tu a dhol = you may go
and in this case the 'a' stands for 'to' and not 'her'
is that right
As far as I know, the "a +lenition thing" only happens when there's a noun working with the verbal noun.
Using colours:
Faodaidh tu dol.
You can (are allowed to) go.
Faodaidh tu pinnt a cheannaich.
You can (are allowed to) buy a pint.
Chan fhaod tu uisge beatha a dh'òl.
You can't (aren't allowed to) drink whisky.
Chan fhaod tu falbh.
You can't (aren't allowed to) leave.
ie. The green verbal noun only gets a* when there's another green noun.
Last edited by Níall Beag on Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Rianaire
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As far as I know, dol is an exception, and you say dol or a dhol depending on dialect - don't ask me which one is which thoughNíall Beag wrote:I thought it was just "faodaidh tu dol".JoP wrote:faodhaidh tu a dhol = you may go
and in this case the 'a' stands for 'to' and not 'her'
is that right
As far as I know, the "a +lenition thing" only happens when there's a noun working with the verbal noun.
For all the other verbs, you are correct.
Oh, and it's pinnt a cheannach(d)
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam
Na dealbhan agam
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- Maor
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- Rianaire
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Tha thu ceart, 'b i fealla-dhà a bh' innteJoP wrote:thu urrainn cumail i = able you she taking (I presume that was a joke, please have pity on us poor learners I spent about half an hour trying to make sense of it)
You are right, it was a joke
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam
Na dealbhan agam