a’ Ghearasdan no a' Ghearasdain??

Ciamar a chanas mi.... / How do I say...
Ruairidh_Mòr

a’ Ghearasdan no a' Ghearasdain??

Unread post by Ruairidh_Mòr » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:38 pm

Just a quick one that my new Gaelic spell checker has thrown me on a bit:

When saying "I am from Fort William" which is the correct form?:

Tha mi às a' Ghearasdan

no

Tha mi às a' Ghearasdain

Should the slendirisation of the final consonant be included or should it not - as I had previously thought?[/b]

Tapadh leibh!



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Unread post by akerbeltz » Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:20 pm

às a' Ghearasdan; à is not a preposition that requires the genitive:

às a' Ghearasdan
leis a' Ghearasdan
bhon a' Ghearasdan
dhan a' Ghearasdan
dhen a' Ghearasdan
tron a' Ghearasdan
fon a' Ghearasdan
air a' Ghearasdan
ris a' Ghearasdan

vs

air beulaibh a' Ghearasdain
air cùlaibh a' Ghearasdain
mu choinneamh a' Ghearasdain
os cionn a' Ghearasdain
ri taobh a' Ghearasdain
an aghaidh a' Ghearasdain
airson a' Ghearasdain

New as in, An Dearbhair?

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Unread post by Seonaidh » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:30 pm

Dè mu dheidhinn "Tha mi às a' Ghearastan"... (Gaelic Orffograffick Convenchuns)

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Unread post by Stìophan » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:50 pm

Seonaidh wrote:Dè mu dheidhinn "Tha mi às a' Ghearastan"... (Gaelic Orffograffick Convenchuns)
How about NO!

As akerbeltz says the correct form is às a' Ghearasdan as An Gearsdan is masculine. Only feminine nouns are slenderised in the dative/prepositional case, a good example is Aviemore:

An Aghaidh Mhòr - anns An Aghaidh Mhòir - air bealaibh Na h-Aghaidhe Mòire

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Unread post by akerbeltz » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:53 pm

How about NO!
Air do shocair :mc:

He meant Gearastan vs Gearasdan.

Bizarrly, GOC does not cover place names. Don't ask me why. Hence the quip by some urrach mór (can't remember who) who said b' àbhaist do ghearastan a bhith san Ghearasdan.

<sigh>

Ruairidh_Mòr

Unread post by Ruairidh_Mòr » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:13 am

Tapadh leibh, tha fhios/ (understand) agam a-nis.

Regarding the Gearasdan to Gearastan discussion, I believe Gearasdan is the correct version as it seems to be used on the road signs, in learning materials etc.

ach

I have noticed it in other words such as pòsda which can also be spelt pòsta.

Is this simply just variations in spelling and if so, which is better to go with. Is pòsda the more archaic version?

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Unread post by deardron » Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:31 pm

The point is that the sounds [t] and [d] are never distinguished after . So whatever letter you use it will do well. Especially it is true in Gaelic where [d] is not voiced, it just has no aspiration. Phonetically it is really [d] after (the Gaelic [d], not the English one!), there can't be variations in spelling!

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Unread post by akerbeltz » Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:37 pm

The phonetic analysis above is correct, as is the logical POV. The sad reality is that the official place-names lists both by Iain Mac an Tàilleir and Ainmean-àite na h-Alba use -sd- and -st- depending on how these are spelt traditionally (e.g. Steòrnabhagh vs An Gearasdan) because GOC officially does not cover place-names.

So, if you want to follow a sensible convention, spell is Gearastan. If you want to follow the current official spelling, spell if Gearasdan.

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Unread post by Stìophan » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:57 pm

personally I prefer -sd because it's more phonetic [Gaelic phonetics that is, not English], so for me it will always be An Gearasdan.

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Unread post by akerbeltz » Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:07 pm

It doesn't really make a difference if its spelled st or sd. The st spelling is more historic, the sd spelling reflects the pronunciation more closely but then, both sd and st are /sd/ (both dental, no aspiration) so it doesn't really matter which as long as there's consistency.

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Unread post by Seonaidh » Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:04 pm

'S tòcha gu bheil sibh uile ceard...

In English, I think, when you get an st word, like "stop", you get aspiration after the t. But you don't get it in "strop". Is there a similar diofar, do you suppose, in Gaelic between, say, "stad" and "stràc"?

Gaelic seems to use sg, sp and st, wgich is perhaps a little inconsistent. Welsh is also inconsistent, using sg, sb and st (usually - you often see "sport" an àite "sbort", with its being a recently borrowed word etc.) I'm a bit surprised the GOCkles didn't pick up on that inconsistency and seek to make it consistent, e.g. with sg, sb and sd or sc, sp and st.

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Unread post by akerbeltz » Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:24 pm

In English, I think, when you get an st word, like "stop", you get aspiration after the t
No, p t c/k in English after s are (except for not having dentalness in t) the same as in Gaelic - unvoiced and no aspiration:
sport /sb/ vs spòrs /sb/
stone /sd/ vs staran /sd/
skunk /sg/ vs sgàil /sg/

sr and str are the same in Gaelic:
/sdr/ /sdr/

Note however that the spelling is not random. Words with str don't lenite, words with sr do:
mo shròn vs dà stràbh

For the most part, GOC just reinforced a tendency of the traditional system which was quite consistent with using sp/sg but messy with st/sd - all down to the slow historic change from the Irish spelling:
scoil > sgoil
asta > asda > asta

The inconsisteny between st/sp vs sg would really be trivial, as long as it was consistent within each category...

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