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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:21 pm
by Níall Beag
Nope, sorry Ak, I don't follow.

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:32 pm
by IainDonnchaidh
Tha mo cheann a' tionndadh :(

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:48 am
by akerbeltz
Tha mo cheann a' tionndadh
nas fhearr: a' dol tuathail

What I meant was that if we analyse sentences of the type:
bu toigh leam ubhal a cheannach
as being
a (< do) cheannach

then one might expect

bu toigh leam leann a dh'òl
since we have
a' dol a (<do) dh'Ìle

But rules can be older or younger in relation to each other and the reduplication of do V > do dh'V may simple postdate the original reduction of do to a before a VN by so much they're not behaving exactly the same way.

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:47 pm
by Níall Beag
akerbeltz wrote:What I meant was that if we analyse sentences of the type:
bu toigh leam ubhal a cheannach
as being
a (< do) cheannach

then one might expect

bu toigh leam leann a dh'òl
since we have
a' dol a (<do) dh'Ìle

But rules can be older or younger in relation to each other and the reduplication of do V > do dh'V may simple postdate the original reduction of do to a before a VN by so much they're not behaving exactly the same way.
I thought that this was a10, and not "do", which you said was a4...!

Re:

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:41 pm
by Thrissel
akerbeltz wrote:a 1: vocative particle (a Mhàiri.../Mary!)
a 2: masc. possessive (a chù.../his dog)
a 3: fem. possessive (a cù.../her dog)
a 4: reduced preposition do + dh' (do dh'Iain/a dh'Ìle.../to Iain, to Inverness)
a 5: reduced preposition de + dh' (de dh'uisge/a dh'uisge.../of water)
a 6: def. article a' (a' chlach.../the stone)
a 7: question particle (a bheil?.../is?)
a 8: relative pronoun (an rud a chunnaic mi.../the thing that I saw)
a 9: reduced form of ag (a' dèanamh.../at doing)
a 10: Niall's Duck (i.e. something that in some very limited types of sentence looks like it's marking an infinitive)
All of a sudden this occurred to me today: a h-aon, a dhà, a trì, ...
a 11 perhaps?

Re: ag iarraidh...

Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:41 am
by akerbeltz
Ya, well spotted

Re: ag iarraidh...

Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:49 pm
by Níall Beag
Unless an enumerative count counts as vocative.

Re: ag iarraidh...

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:21 pm
by poor_mouse
Gabhaibh mo leisgeul:

Feumaidh mise an uineag fhosgladh

no

Feumaidh mise an uineag a dh'fhosgladh?

Chan eil mi cinnteach...

Re: ag iarraidh...

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:49 am
by faoileag
Feumaidh mi an uinneag fhòsgladh.

It works like 'iarraidh' above, and other modal-type verbs and expressions - faodaidh, 's urrainn dhomh etc.
I.e. if there is no object, they just take the verbal noun.
If there is an object, it comes before the verbal noun, which has 'a' before it and is lenited if possible, except for 'f' , which is lenited but has no 'a', and vowels, whch stay the same.

E.g.
A bheil thu ag iarraidh draibheadh?
'S urrainn dha càr a dhraibheadh.
Feumaidh mi falbh.
Às dèidh dhomh an taigh fhàgail.... - after I left the house ...
Am faod mi an uinneag a dhùnadh?
Tha mi ag iarraidh fòn ùr a cheannach.
'B fheàrr leam fìon òl.

You only need the a dh'fhosgladh form after ' a verb implying purpose', typically a' dol, a' tighinn.

Tha mi a' dol a dh'fhosgladh na h-uinneige (classically + genitive object)
Thig e a dh'òl an uisge-beatha againn.


One last wee extra:

the verbs dol, tighinn, bhith behave differently from other verbs after iarraidh etc - they take the 'a + lenited verbal noun' form even though they have no object.:

Tha mi ag iarraidh a dhol dhan bhaile
'S urrainn dhut a thighinn dhachaigh
Chan fhaod sinn a bhith cho leisg.


Hope there are no major flaws in there - I'll happily let Akerbeltz or someone correct me if so! :spors:

Re: ag iarraidh...

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:01 am
by poor_mouse
Mòran taing!

Tha mi 'n dòchas gu bheil sin soilleir buileach a-nis -- I think also that now it's absolutely clear!

ag iarraidh...

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:35 am
by GunChleoc

ag iarraidh...

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:22 am
by Misamisa
faoileag wrote: Feumaidh mi an uinneag fhòsgladh.

It works like 'iarraidh' above, and other modal-type verbs and expressions - faodaidh, 's urrainn dhomh etc.
I.e. if there is no object, they just take the verbal noun.
If there is an object, it comes before the verbal noun, which has 'a' before it and is lenited if possible, except for 'f' , which is lenited but has no 'a', and vowels, whch stay the same.

E.g.
A bheil thu ag iarraidh draibheadh?
'S urrainn dha càr a dhraibheadh.
Feumaidh mi falbh.
Às dèidh dhomh an taigh fhàgail.... - after I left the house ...
Am faod mi an uinneag a dhùnadh?
Tha mi ag iarraidh fòn ùr a cheannach.
'B fheàrr leam fìon òl.

You only need the a dh'fhosgladh form after ' a verb implying purpose', typically a' dol, a' tighinn.

Tha mi a' dol a dh'fhosgladh na h-uinneige (classically + genitive object)
Thig e a dh'òl an uisge-beatha againn.


One last wee extra:

the verbs dol, tighinn, bhith behave differently from other verbs after iarraidh etc - they take the 'a + lenited verbal noun' form even though they have no object.:

Tha mi ag iarraidh a dhol dhan bhaile
'S urrainn dhut a thighinn dhachaigh
Chan fhaod sinn a bhith cho leisg.


Hope there are no major flaws in there - I'll happily let Akerbeltz or someone correct me if so! :spors:
You have mentioned 3 verbs would behave differently after ‘ag iarraidh’ what about ‘ag ràdh’? I am getting a bit confused how ‘ag ràdh’ could be used after it. Could it be ‘Tha mi ag iarraidh ràdh riutha’ or ‘Tha mi ag iarraidh a ràdh riutha’

Le deagh dhùrachdan,

M

ag iarraidh...

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:46 am
by faoileag
The a+ lenited verbal noun occurs when the verb following a modal introduction (Feumaidh mi, tha mi ag iarraidh, tha mi an dòchas etc) has a direct object. This object is pulled in front of the verb it belongs to, contrary to English practice, hence the term "Inversion" being used for this construction in English-language grammars.

So for this "inversion" construction ( object + a + lenited VN), you need two things: a modal intro, and a direct object for the verb.

Tha mi ag radh sin - I am saying that. (No modal before ràdh, so no inversion.)
Bha mi ag ràdh sin ris. I was saying that to him. (ditto)
Bha mi ag ràdh ris gu bheil Màiri tinn.... I was saying to him that M. is ill. (ditto)

Feumaidh mi sin a ràdh - I have to say that. (Inversion, as there is a modal intro, feumaidh mi, and the verb after the modal, ràdh, now has a direct object, sin).
Feumaidh mi sin a ràdh riut. I have to say that to you. (ràdh has object, sin, so inversion)
Feumaidh mi ràdh riut gu bheil Màiri tinn - I have to say to you that M. is ill. ( no object for ràdh, so bare verbal noun, no inversion)

Tha mi ag iarraidh ràdh riut gu bheil M. tinn. I want to say to you that... ( no object for ràdh, so bare verbal noun, no inversion.)
Tha mi ag iarraidh sin a ràdh riut. I want to say that to you. (ràdh has object, sin, so inversion.)