ag iarraidh...

Ciamar a chanas mi.... / How do I say...
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ag iarraidh...

Unread postby Níall Beag » Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:39 pm

I was sitting down trying to work out how I would teach Gaelic, and I got a bit confused over "iarraidh".

I wrote down Dé tha thu ag iarraidh ri òl? for What do you want to drink?

But when I went to write I want to drink, I wrote down tha mi ag iarraidh òl, and forI want to drink something what I put down was Tha mi ag iarraidh rudeigin (a) òl.

I also put down I want something to drink -- Tha mi ag iarraidh rudeigin ri òl.

Are all of these correct?

Part of me is a bit confused by the disappearing reappearing "ri", even though I'm sure I would say all of these without giving it a second thought....

Tha mi ag iarraidh rudeigin òl feels somehow quite odd to me, but the alternative (Tha mi ag iarraidh ri rudeigin òl) sounds completely wrong and I can't imagine ever saying it.



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Unread postby Seonaidh » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:09 pm

Dè mu dheidhinn:-

Dè bu thoigh leat/leibh òl? an àite Dé tha thu ag iarraidh ri òl?
(no "Dè bu toil leat òl")

Bu thoigh leam òl an àite Tha mi ag iarraidh òl
(no "Bu toil leam òl") - nas fheàrr, 's dòcha, "Bu toil leam deoch"...

Bu thoigh leam rudeigin òl an àite Tha mi ag iarraidh rudeigin (a) òl.
("Bu toil leam rudeigin òl")

Bu thoigh leam rudeigin òl an àite Tha mi ag iarraidh rudeigin ri òl.
("Bu toil leam rudeigin òl")

Faiceamaid...
"Tha mi ag iarraidh rudeigin ri òl": 's dòcha, sa Bheurla "I'm wanting [no I want] something for (its) drinking"; "Tha mi ag iarraidh ri rudeigin òl": 's dòcha "I want for owt to drink" (ciallachadh GLÈ thradaiseanta air "want" sa Bheurla an siud!); "Tha mi ag iarraidh rudeigin òl": 's dòcha "I want owt to drink". Chan eil mi cinnteach idir air dè as fheàrr sa Ghàidhlig - 's dòcha gum biodh a' crochadh air far an robh thu sa Ghàidhealtachd.

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Unread postby akerbeltz » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:26 pm

Whether you use bu toigh leam or tha mi ag iarraidh makes no difference, both fall under the category of modal constructions i.e. constructions of wanting, having to etc so they cause the same kind of grammar to happen.

Tha mi ag iarraidh rudeigin ri òl
Bu toigh leam rudeigin ri òl

require the ri because you're naming the object. Or, thinking about it the other way round, if you had

Tha mi ag iarraidh rudeigin òl
Bu toigh leam rudeigin òl


it would mean "I want to drink something" but not "I want something to drink".

In a way òl and rudeigin are not helpful cause they don't show marking overtly. Try bualadh and clann:

Tha mi ag iarraidh bualadh
Bu toigh leam bualadh

I want to hit

So far so good. No object so no need for marking or inversion.

Tha mi ag iarraidh clann a bhualadh
Bu toigh leam clann a bhualadh

I want to hit children

This requires inversion in Gaelic because you have a modal phrase + a verbal noun + an object, so you need to do the cas mu seach thing.

The same principle applies if you replace clann with another noun or pronoun (except that pronouns do their own thing in terms of lenition):

Tha mi ag iarraidh rudeigin a bhualadh
Bu toigh leam rudeigin a bhualadh

I want to hit something

Tha mi ag iarraidh do bhualadh
Bu toigh leam do bhualadh

I want to hit you

Now, if you want "something to hit" rather than "to hit something", the ri comes into play:

Tha mi ag iarraidh rudeigin ri (a) bhualadh
Bu toigh leam rudeigin ri (a) bhualadh

I want something to hit

The lenition comes from the ellided a "his".

Make sense now?

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Unread postby Níall Beag » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:41 pm

A... móran taing. So I had it almost right, but I wasn't aware of the hidden possessive -- the "(a)" in mine was supposed to be the infinitive particle.

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Unread postby akerbeltz » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:15 am

'S e do bheatha!

Gaelic actually doesn't have an infinitive particle - there's the reduced form of do (e.g. thàna mi a dh'òl I came to drink i.e. I came to(wards) drinking) and then there's the possessives but that's it. It's just ever so slightly confusing because do before consonants behaves like the possessive a mostly. Not as bad as Albanian though where you get a slack dozen particles which are all ë and mean different things.

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Unread postby Thrissel » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:36 pm

So this is why the ri moves from the verb to the object in the phrase bi aig... ri...? I mean, when you say

tha agam ri seinn - I have to sing

but

tha agam ri òran a sheinn

it's because the latter means "I have to sing a song" rather than "I need a song to sing"?

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Unread postby GunChleoc » Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:06 pm

tha agam ri òran a sheinn - I have to sing a song

tha òran agam ri seinn - I have a song to sing

Clear as mud? :tac: :lol:
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

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Unread postby Thrissel » Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:53 pm

If

feumaidh mi òran ri seinn - I need a song to sing

then yes, clear as mud. :)

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Unread postby akerbeltz » Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:07 pm

almost -
tha òran agam ri sheinn

"be song at me against its singing"

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Unread postby Níall Beag » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:17 pm

I think Thrissel's trying to say something more like "I want to sing but I don't have a song"/"I need a song so that I can sing it."

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Unread postby Thrissel » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:22 pm

Precisely :priob:

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Unread postby IainDonnchaidh » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:42 pm

Nach eil "to drink" a dh'òl :?:

Ach, fuam ri coltach a dhol .... :?

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Unread postby Níall Beag » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:57 pm

IainDonnchaidh wrote:Nach eil "to drink" a dh'òl :?:

Well, I do remember the semi-tongue twister Tha mi a' dol a dh'òl a dh'Ealaghol.

However, if I'm following Akerbeltz right, the difference here is that "a dh'òl" is "to drink", but "to drink it" would be "a òl" (literally "its drinking").

Unless I'm very much mistaken, even if this "it" is masculine (hence lenites) it won't do the dh' thing, as that's not normal lenition.

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Unread postby akerbeltz » Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:12 pm

Tá an ceart agat, a Néill

You need to think about this the other way round, then it beomes easy.

How would you say I'm giving this to Donald?

Tha mi a' toirt seo do Dhòmhnall

Now, in old fashioned Gaelic, how would you say I'm going to Islay?

Tha mi a' dol do dh'Ìle

Which in modern Gaelic becomes

Tha mi a' dol a dh'Ìle (as do reduces to a)

Now turn to I'm going to drink:

Tha mi a' dol do dh'òl
or more commonly
Tha mi a' dol a dhòl

The do dh' / a dh' is not the result of this elusive infinitive that people keep trying to conjur up but simply a directional preposition when there is a verb of motion involved (a' dol, thàinig etc) i.e. I am doing towards drinking (in Gaelic anyway).

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Unread postby IainDonnchaidh » Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:45 pm

The do dh' / a dh' is not the result of this elusive infinitive that people keep trying to conjur up but simply a directional preposition when there is a verb of motion involved (a' dol, thàinig etc) i.e. I am doing towards drinking (in Gaelic anyway).


Hmmm ... I was simply following the regular verb conjugation guide in my dictionary :?

Mar eisimpleir:

Tha mi a' dol dham taigh-osda uisge-beatha a dh'òl.

no

Tha mi a' dol dhan bùth biadh a cheannich.