Mur(a) - If ... not

Ciamar a chanas mi.... / How do I say...
sr3nitygirl

Mur(a) - If ... not

Unread post by sr3nitygirl » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:59 pm

I've seen a couple of different forms of saying If.. not.

1. Mur (eil|robh|bi).. e.g. Mur eil thu sgith...

2. Mur nach (eil|robh|bi) ... e.g. Mur nach eil thu sgith...

Is this a matter of dialect, or is one form falling out of favour, or can they be both be used?



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Re: Mur(a) - If ... not

Unread post by GunChleoc » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:14 pm

There is a diaclect thing involved. E.g. for 1, you can also say Mura h-eil... Other dialect forms of mur are man and mana

eil|robh|bi - that's present, past and future tense:

Ma tha - Mur(a h-)eil
Ma bha - Mur(a) robh
Ma bhios - Mur(a) bi
Nam biodh - Mur(a) biodh
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

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Re: Mur(a) - If ... not

Unread post by Thrissel » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:08 pm

Bur what about the nach? If mur(a)=unless, it should mean

mur eil thu sgìth = unless you are tired
mur nach eil thu sgìth = unless you are not tired

but apparently this is not the case, as I found "Mur nach eil prìos sgrìobhte tha iad an asgaidh.", "Cha lean na clasaichean mur nach eil oileanaich gu leòr ann." (both CnaG) ⁊c:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?num=20&h ... l213l4l4l0

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Re: Mur(a) - If ... not

Unread post by Níall Beag » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:07 pm

Thrissel wrote:Bur what about the nach? If mur(a)=unless,
It's not literally "unless", although it is sometimes used as the equivalent.

"Mur" is simply the negative equivalent of "ma".

If some dialects duplicate the negative with "mur nach", it's really no big deal.

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Re: Mur(a) - If ... not

Unread post by poor_mouse » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:50 am

Seadh, 's e àicheadh dùbailte a tha ann; tha e àbhaisteach sa Ruisis, ged nach eil e ceart sa Bheurla.
Eilidh -- Luchag Bhochd

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Re: Mur(a) - If ... not

Unread post by faoileag » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:02 am

Double negatives are used in English too, in colloquial speech (American but also regional English):

I can't get no satisfaction

You ain't going nowhere

and were common in Shakespeare's day (lots of 'Not so neither'), and in the King James Bible.

More here:

http://www.bartleby.com/185/45.html

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Re: Mur(a) - If ... not

Unread post by AlasdairBochd » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:19 am

They're very common here as well, but in English double negatives aren't used logically.

"You aint going nowhere" logically means you actually are going somewhere, but its colloquial meaning is "you're not going anywhere".

Gàidhlig on the other hand uses them logically, I think with the intention of being subtle or to allow further discussion.

m.e. Cha chreid mi nach bi uisge ann a-màireach - I don't believe that there won't be rain tomorrow (I believe there'll be rain tomorrow).

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Re: Mur(a) - If ... not

Unread post by Thrissel » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:02 am

I think that both alternatives are logical, just using a different logic. The double negative only turns into a positive meaning when you have two negative verbs/verbal phrases, be it "cha chreid+nach bi", "don't believe+won't be" or "не верю+не бу́дет идти".

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Re: Mur(a) - If ... not

Unread post by akerbeltz » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:20 am

Any permutation is possible, in some languages, neg+pos=neg, others have neg+pos=pos, there's neg+neg=pos and then there's the rare pos+pos=neg.

The last one refers to a joke about a lecture on this topic where the prof points out the fact that two positives never make a negative. Followed by a "aye, right" from the back row.

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Re: Mur(a) - If ... not

Unread post by poor_mouse » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:22 am

akerbeltz wrote:...rare pos+pos=neg.
The last one refers to a joke about a lecture on this topic where the prof points out the fact that two positives never make a negative. Followed by a "aye, right" from the back row.
Seadh, tha fios agam mu dheidhinn sin san Ruiseis! :) The answer was "ну да, конечно" -- with the peculiar intonation, of course.

San Ruiseis, tha sinn ag ràdh, m.e.: "я ничего никому не скажу (ни о чем)" -- tha sin a' ciallachadh "I'll not tell anybody anything (about anything)" -- all these "ни" only intensify the negation.
Eilidh -- Luchag Bhochd

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Re: Mur(a) - If ... not

Unread post by Thrissel » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:35 pm

poor_mouse wrote:San Ruiseis, tha sinn ag ràdh, m.e.: "я ничего никому не скажу (ни о чем)" -- tha sin a' ciallachadh "I'll not tell anybody anything (about anything)" -- all these "ни" only intensify the negation.
Chan eil mo chuid Ruiseis 's a bha i o chionn fhada, ach chan eil mi cinnteach gu bheil iad "intensifying the negation". Nach biodh ciall eile aig an t-seantans às an eugmhais? Nam chanadh tu "я что-то кому-то не скажу (о чём-то)", nach biodh sin "I'll not tell somebody something (about something)"?

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Re: Mur(a) - If ... not

Unread post by poor_mouse » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:08 pm

Ceart; не скажу что-то -- something (some specific thing), не скажу ничего -- anything. With ничего it has more negative sense; well, in some cases it's only intensifying, and in others it's adding the negation: I'll not tell, and there's not a thing that I'll tell (and there's not anybody to whome I'll tell etc).
Eilidh -- Luchag Bhochd

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Re: Mur(a) - If ... not

Unread post by Seonaidh » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:36 pm

Bha an t-aicheadh dùbailte (agus a bharrachd!) glè chumanta sa Bheurla ron Ath-Bheothachadh. An sin thàinig sgolairean clasaigeach air adhart 's iadsan ag ràdh nach ann loidsigeach a bha seo, le leantainn eisimpleir na Làideann. Agus mar sin sgaoil an nòs ùr sìos bho na mòrchuisichean chun an fho-eagar. 'S dòcha nach tachair an aon nì sa Ghàidhlig.

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