R caol

[liammcg]

Firstly I hope this is the correct place for this query, if not feel free to move it @ moderators.

An urrainn do dhuine sam bith a (h an seo?)innse dhomh ciamar an fuaim "R caol" a dhèanamh? Tha an cùrsa "Scottish Gaelic in Twelve Weeks" agam, is à Bharraigh a tha na luchd-bruidhne.

(ceartaidhean, mas e ur toil e)

Can anyone tell me how to articulate the slender R? I've heard it done a few different ways. In the course mentioned above, it sometimes seems like the R has a "th" sound to it, the speakers being from Barra. I have some understanding of phonetics if someone wishes to explain it.

Tapadh leibh!

[faoileag]

You're in the right place here for such questions - Mr Blas na Gaidhlig Akerbelz himself is a member, and Gun Chleoc is also no mean phoneticist!

And yes, the (sort of)"th" variation is well-documented (though I say that as an amateur).

[Ceid]

Flòraidh NicDhòmhnaill , who is a native spaker from Benbecula, has a pretty pronouced "th" sound to her slender r's. You can hear her speak on the CD that comes with her book Còco is Crùbagan. That allophone for the slender r is only found in certain dialects in the Western Isles, so if that book you're using has speakers from around Barra, chances are some of them are using the "th" allophone.

Blas na Gàdhlig has a pretty detailed explanation on how make the slender r, athough I can't seem to do it the way Michael (akerbeltz) describes (maybe I'm not understanding it correctly). Personally, I just aim for a "th" sound but don't let my tongue go all the way to my front teeth, instead having it only reach that part of the gums behind the front teeth, and then make a not-too-forceful "r" sound with my tongue in that position.

The majority of native speakers I've been exposed to have been either from the Western Isles or from Cape Breton, whose dialects are descended largely from the island dialects, and what I've heard has been a range from a pretty explosive "th" to a barely audible, breathy "r". I just try to get something in that range--just as long as it's not an English r.

[Thrissel]

An urrainn do dhuine sam bith a (h an seo?)innse dhomh ... ?

No, even the a disappears before another vowel: An urrainn do dhuine sam bith innse dhomh ... ?

A short description of the slender r is here
http://akerbeltz.org/index.php?title=Li ... t_there.21

Personally I settled on saying the Czech ř the way people who can't pronounce it properly say it but I doubt that's of any help to you...

[liammcg]

Thanks all for the replies, and to Thrissell for the correction

That Blas na Gàidhlig book looks very tempting!

I'm familiar with the Czech R as the sound is identical (I think) to the Irish slender R. I have this sound pretty much down I think, after countless months of listening and repeating. I've never heard this sound used in Scottish Gaelic though (keeping in mind I haven't had that much exposure to it) , is it used in any particular dialect, presently or historically?

[GunChleoc]

I always have trouble remembering which dialect does what. The slender r ranges between the soft English th and a tap against the back of the teeth.

[akerbeltz]

Barra is s little odd when it comes to single slender r. The Survey of Scottish Gaelic Dialects has 4 points (i.e. speakers recorded) for Barra, 27-30 and they have two variants. 27 just has the normal "mainland" /ɾʲ̥/ - don't let the circle confuse you, that's just final devoicing (just accept for now it's something regular that usually happens at the end of a word). So that's the slightly lisped r you get from most non-Hebridean (and some Hebridean) Gaelic speakers.

The other three have /ř/. For Thrissel this is probably Christmas come early, it seems to be the same thing. The technical description is that of a palatalized voiced tip alveolar fricative which is not rolled and apparently unique to Barra (within Gaelic that is). Let me ungarble that for you. It means that you bring your tongue very close to your alveolar ridge (that boney ridge behind your teeth) and raise the part behind the tip of your tongue towards the roof of your mouth (no need to touch). Air then streams through the narrow gap between your tongue tip and your alveolar ridge to make the /ř/. Wikipedia has a recording which seems pretty much what the description should sound like to me.

[liammcg]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, akerbeltz!

I'll do plenty more listening in order to hear the different qualities of rs used by different people from different areas. Fascinating stuff!

[Seonaidh]

Taing mhòr do Thrissel! Cha robh mi eòlach air Rv nan Seicach (cha do lorg mi š le r seach s ann an liosta Ghun Chleoch) - uill, robh mi eòlach oirre, ach tha mi air cluinntinn nithean mar "d-v-o-r-zh-a-k" agus bha mi a' smaointinn gum b' e "r + zh" a bha fuaim na R ud.

[Thrissel]

Hi ho, this is interesting indeed.

@ liammcg: Czechs generally believe that the "ř" sound is unique to Czech, and inability to pronounce it correctly is without doubt the most usual speech impediment amongst native Czech speakers. Like many others, I spent several years as a child visiting a "speech therapist" about it and even today I only do it right when I focus on it, so I'm quite surprised Irish has it too.

@ Akerbeltz: Wikipedia talks about raised alveolar non-sonorant trill and its "basic" form certainly doesn't sound to me like the Gaelic slender r, that seems to me like comparing /s/ and /θ/, but then I never claimed to have much of a phonologist's ear, and now I think about it the voiceless allophone of ř (if that's what we do in eg při (=with)) maybe does resemble it. But when I first heard Gaelic slender r in Am Faclair's sound files I thought Hey, this is what they've been, not exactly successfully, trying to unlearn me all those years ago, so I've had had my Xmas for quite some time now . Anyway, the difference in what you make with your mouth is that you touch the back of your upper teeth with the part of your tongue just behind its tip.

@ Seonaidh: Oddly enough, just today I came across this video which agrees with you. Funny thing is, I don't see how he or you get there from r+zh, but he pronounces the word "řeka" even more "natively" than the lass in the Wikipedia sound file.

[akerbeltz]

Well, it's not the "standard" /rʲ/ or /ð/ sound for certain. My experience with ř both in Czech and Barra Gaelic is limited I must say - you don't hear it much which is why you're unlikely to have come across the Gaelic /ř/, Thrissel. As far as unique goes, unique is really rare and this sound isn't that crazy that I'd expect it to be truly unique but hey, who knows.

I'll listen closely next time I hear Barra people but in the meantime, I'd aim for /rʲ/ or /ð/.