Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
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Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
Hallò
1.
I'm trying to find what is the subjunctive negative particle before verbs, as in negative wishes: "may you not see...". I found "nar" as in nar leigeadh Dia... !". I also found "nara". Are they both correct? Which one is the commonest? And are they followed by the aspiration? or do they prefix h- to vowels?
And what is the copula (is) form of that, ie. the negative form of "guma"?
Guma fada a leanas iad -> in negative: ??? fada a leanas iad
2.
I'm not sure about the emphatic suffixes -sa, -se etc. My books don't agree on that.
m' athair-se or -sa?
d' athair-se or -sa?
a h-athair-se or -sa?
ar n-athair-??? ne? na?
ur n-athair-???
an athair-san???
and after broad consonants:
mo phiuthar-sa
do phiuthar-sa?
a phiuthar-san
a piuthar-sa? -se?
ar piuthar-???
ur piuthar-???
am piuthar-san???
mòran taing!!
1.
I'm trying to find what is the subjunctive negative particle before verbs, as in negative wishes: "may you not see...". I found "nar" as in nar leigeadh Dia... !". I also found "nara". Are they both correct? Which one is the commonest? And are they followed by the aspiration? or do they prefix h- to vowels?
And what is the copula (is) form of that, ie. the negative form of "guma"?
Guma fada a leanas iad -> in negative: ??? fada a leanas iad
2.
I'm not sure about the emphatic suffixes -sa, -se etc. My books don't agree on that.
m' athair-se or -sa?
d' athair-se or -sa?
a h-athair-se or -sa?
ar n-athair-??? ne? na?
ur n-athair-???
an athair-san???
and after broad consonants:
mo phiuthar-sa
do phiuthar-sa?
a phiuthar-san
a piuthar-sa? -se?
ar piuthar-???
ur piuthar-???
am piuthar-san???
mòran taing!!
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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
It's another one of those reduction things: nar a -> nara -> nar. So unless I'm very much mistaken, it's followed by the independent form.Lughaidh wrote:I'm trying to find what is the subjunctive negative particle before verbs, as in negative wishes: "may you not see...". I found "nar" as in nar leigeadh Dia... !". I also found "nara". Are they both correct? Which one is the commonest? And are they followed by the aspiration? or do they prefix h- to vowels?
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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
Thanks. And does it trigger the aspiration, or does it prefix h- to vowels?
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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
Chan eil fhios agam, ach 's dòcha gu bheil e mar sin?Am Faclair Beag wrote:nar /nar/
co-ghn.
let not, may not (followed by imperative, usually with lenition)
Eilidh -- Luchag Bhochd
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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
Followed by imperative? looks strange, normally you use "na" before imperatives ("na dèan...").
Anyway. Thanks, I guess it's true that there's a lenition...
And for my 2nd question, on emphatic endings? am beil fhios aig cuideigin? tapadh leibh
Anyway. Thanks, I guess it's true that there's a lenition...

And for my 2nd question, on emphatic endings? am beil fhios aig cuideigin? tapadh leibh
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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
Seall, 's e "m'athair-sa" an-seo,
agus
agus
GOC wrote:a brògan-se, ar càirdean-ne, mo leabhar-sa, mo sheacaid ùr-sa
Eilidh -- Luchag Bhochd
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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
Thanks, that is a scan of Calder's grammar, I have a copy of it. But i'm a bit in doubt concerning "a h-athair-SE and t'athair-SA... why is it -SE and -SA while the last consonant is exactly the same? Is it a typo? or a strange rule? Btw Calder is a grammar of rather archaic Gaelic, quite often, and I'd like to know how people say nowadays 
thanks

thanks
Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
Why is it -se or -sa?
Because the -se or -sa (etc) agree with the possessive pronoun/preposition involved:
aice-se > a (her) + noun + -se
agad-sa > do (your) + lenited noun + sa
aige-san > a (his) + lenited noun + san
againne > ar (our) + noun + -ne
etc.
This seems logical to me.
Whether or not it's still fully observed is another matter.
Because the -se or -sa (etc) agree with the possessive pronoun/preposition involved:
aice-se > a (her) + noun + -se
agad-sa > do (your) + lenited noun + sa
aige-san > a (his) + lenited noun + san
againne > ar (our) + noun + -ne
etc.
This seems logical to me.
Whether or not it's still fully observed is another matter.
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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
Oh, I thought that Lughaidh were talking about "m' athair-se" as a variant of "m' athair-sa" (there are many examples in the internet).
I'm not certain if it's fully erroneous, or there are some excuse for such form.
I'm not certain if it's fully erroneous, or there are some excuse for such form.
Eilidh -- Luchag Bhochd
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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
Poor_mouse,
That's what Faoileag is explaining. The correct for is "m' athair-se", because you're saying <i><b>my</b> dad</i>. People writing it the other way probably think they're emphasising <i>my <b>dad</b></i>. Maybe this is natural variation, or maybe it's a learner error. I don't know.
But Lughaidh seems to be saying that Calder's grammar shows it as a broad/slender distinction. What page is it on, Lughaidh? There's a copy of the book on Archive.org, and you've got me curious....
That's what Faoileag is explaining. The correct for is "m' athair-se", because you're saying <i><b>my</b> dad</i>. People writing it the other way probably think they're emphasising <i>my <b>dad</b></i>. Maybe this is natural variation, or maybe it's a learner error. I don't know.
But Lughaidh seems to be saying that Calder's grammar shows it as a broad/slender distinction. What page is it on, Lughaidh? There's a copy of the book on Archive.org, and you've got me curious....
Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
An seo, a Nèill - bha ceangal aig poor mouse gu h-àrd:
http://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book ... d=76602205
http://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book ... d=76602205
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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
There's another thing too: mise, but mo (something)-sa (as agamsa, ormsa etc).
As for broad/slender variants, they seem to be the same in the Calder's grammar.
As for broad/slender variants, they seem to be the same in the Calder's grammar.
Eilidh -- Luchag Bhochd
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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
Thanks... and sorry -- my brain's clearly malfunctioning due to heat -- I completely missed that link before.
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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
On page 164.
http://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book ... d=76602205
Mm, actually it looks like it's right, I've had a look at studies on Bernera Gaelic and on Leurbost Gaelic and they say the same thing, as weird as it may be (especially for an irish speaker like me
):
gha mo choimhead-sa
gha do choimhead-sa
gha choimhead-san
gha coimhead-se
ghar coimhead-ne
ghar coimhead-se
ghan coimhead-san
http://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book ... d=76602205
Mm, actually it looks like it's right, I've had a look at studies on Bernera Gaelic and on Leurbost Gaelic and they say the same thing, as weird as it may be (especially for an irish speaker like me

gha mo choimhead-sa
gha do choimhead-sa
gha choimhead-san
gha coimhead-se
ghar coimhead-ne
ghar coimhead-se
ghan coimhead-san
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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes
Tha mi air fhaicinn nach d'fhuair mi freagairt sam bith air a' cheist seo:
mòran taing
am beil fhios ag cuideigin?And what is the copula (is) form of that, ie. the negative form of "guma"?
Guma fada a leanas iad -> in negative: ??? fada a leanas iad
mòran taing