Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Ciamar a chanas mi.... / How do I say...
Lughaidh
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Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by Lughaidh » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:13 pm

Hallò

1.

I'm trying to find what is the subjunctive negative particle before verbs, as in negative wishes: "may you not see...". I found "nar" as in nar leigeadh Dia... !". I also found "nara". Are they both correct? Which one is the commonest? And are they followed by the aspiration? or do they prefix h- to vowels?

And what is the copula (is) form of that, ie. the negative form of "guma"?
Guma fada a leanas iad -> in negative: ??? fada a leanas iad

2.

I'm not sure about the emphatic suffixes -sa, -se etc. My books don't agree on that.

m' athair-se or -sa?
d' athair-se or -sa?
a h-athair-se or -sa?
ar n-athair-??? ne? na?
ur n-athair-???
an athair-san???

and after broad consonants:
mo phiuthar-sa
do phiuthar-sa?
a phiuthar-san
a piuthar-sa? -se?
ar piuthar-???
ur piuthar-???
am piuthar-san???

mòran taing!!



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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by Níall Beag » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:02 pm

Lughaidh wrote:I'm trying to find what is the subjunctive negative particle before verbs, as in negative wishes: "may you not see...". I found "nar" as in nar leigeadh Dia... !". I also found "nara". Are they both correct? Which one is the commonest? And are they followed by the aspiration? or do they prefix h- to vowels?
It's another one of those reduction things: nar a -> nara -> nar. So unless I'm very much mistaken, it's followed by the independent form.

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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by Lughaidh » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:04 am

Thanks. And does it trigger the aspiration, or does it prefix h- to vowels?

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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by poor_mouse » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:18 am

Am Faclair Beag wrote:nar /nar/
co-ghn.
let not, may not (followed by imperative, usually with lenition)
Chan eil fhios agam, ach 's dòcha gu bheil e mar sin?
Eilidh -- Luchag Bhochd

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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by Lughaidh » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:46 pm

Followed by imperative? looks strange, normally you use "na" before imperatives ("na dèan...").
Anyway. Thanks, I guess it's true that there's a lenition... :)

And for my 2nd question, on emphatic endings? am beil fhios aig cuideigin? tapadh leibh

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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by poor_mouse » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:55 pm

Seall, 's e "m'athair-sa" an-seo,
agus
GOC wrote:a brògan-se, ar càirdean-ne, mo leabhar-sa, mo sheacaid ùr-sa
Eilidh -- Luchag Bhochd

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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by Lughaidh » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:29 pm

Thanks, that is a scan of Calder's grammar, I have a copy of it. But i'm a bit in doubt concerning "a h-athair-SE and t'athair-SA... why is it -SE and -SA while the last consonant is exactly the same? Is it a typo? or a strange rule? Btw Calder is a grammar of rather archaic Gaelic, quite often, and I'd like to know how people say nowadays :)
thanks

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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by faoileag » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:54 pm

Why is it -se or -sa?

Because the -se or -sa (etc) agree with the possessive pronoun/preposition involved:
aice-se > a (her) + noun + -se
agad-sa > do (your) + lenited noun + sa
aige-san > a (his) + lenited noun + san
againne > ar (our) + noun + -ne
etc.

This seems logical to me.

Whether or not it's still fully observed is another matter.

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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by poor_mouse » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:13 am

Oh, I thought that Lughaidh were talking about "m' athair-se" as a variant of "m' athair-sa" (there are many examples in the internet).
I'm not certain if it's fully erroneous, or there are some excuse for such form.
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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by Níall Beag » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:31 pm

Poor_mouse,
That's what Faoileag is explaining. The correct for is "m' athair-se", because you're saying <i><b>my</b> dad</i>. People writing it the other way probably think they're emphasising <i>my <b>dad</b></i>. Maybe this is natural variation, or maybe it's a learner error. I don't know.

But Lughaidh seems to be saying that Calder's grammar shows it as a broad/slender distinction. What page is it on, Lughaidh? There's a copy of the book on Archive.org, and you've got me curious....

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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by faoileag » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:13 pm

An seo, a Nèill - bha ceangal aig poor mouse gu h-àrd:

http://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book ... d=76602205

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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by poor_mouse » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:15 am

There's another thing too: mise, but mo (something)-sa (as agamsa, ormsa etc).

As for broad/slender variants, they seem to be the same in the Calder's grammar.
Eilidh -- Luchag Bhochd

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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by Níall Beag » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:09 pm

Thanks... and sorry -- my brain's clearly malfunctioning due to heat -- I completely missed that link before.

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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by Lughaidh » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:10 am

On page 164.
http://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book ... d=76602205

Mm, actually it looks like it's right, I've had a look at studies on Bernera Gaelic and on Leurbost Gaelic and they say the same thing, as weird as it may be (especially for an irish speaker like me :farmad: ):

gha mo choimhead-sa
gha do choimhead-sa
gha choimhead-san
gha coimhead-se
ghar coimhead-ne
ghar coimhead-se
ghan coimhead-san

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Re: Subjunctive negative + emphatice personal suffixes

Unread post by Lughaidh » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:23 am

Tha mi air fhaicinn nach d'fhuair mi freagairt sam bith air a' cheist seo:
And what is the copula (is) form of that, ie. the negative form of "guma"?
Guma fada a leanas iad -> in negative: ??? fada a leanas iad
am beil fhios ag cuideigin?
mòran taing

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