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Indirect relative of "is" ?

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:47 am
by Lughaidh
Hallò

I was wondering, is there a specific indirect relative form of "is" in Gaelic?

For instance when you want to say "the man who owns that house":
Am fear [???] leis an taigh sin.

or

The man whose daughter is a nurse
Am fear [???] e banaltram a tha na nighinn.

In Irish it's non-aspirating "ar" in the present tense (an fear ar leis an teach ; an fear ar banaltra a níon).

In the past, is it "am bu"? Am fear am bu leis an taigh sin ? Am fear am b' e banaltram a tha na nighinn?

Cha d'fhuair mi sin ann an àite sam bith... 's dòcha nach gabh e a chleachdadh a thuilleadh?
mòran taing :)

Re: Indirect relative of "is" ?

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:18 pm
by poor_mouse
In the first case I think there would not be "is", but "tha": Tha an taigh seo aig X >> am fear (X) aig a bheil an taigh seo.

As for the second example, maybe: Am fear leis a bheil an nighean a tha na nurs. (Chan eil mi cinnteach).

Lorg mi seo, ach chan eil mi ga thuigsinn gu buileach:
Dwelly wrote:Am fear leis an leis mi, the man whose I am.
In any case, the verb will stay after the preposition (if there is any preposition here), and in the same form as in the question (a bheil, an, am bu).
I do not know how it works without a preposition and with the verb "is".

Re: Indirect relative of "is" ?

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:15 pm
by akerbeltz
am fear aig a bheil an taigh
The man whose daughter is a nurse
This one is more interesting. You you the relative particle, an independent/relative verb and a possessive

Am fear a tha a nighean 'na banaltram
An duine a chaidh a mhac a Ghlaschu
An tè a dh'fhosglas an duine aice an doras

Re: Indirect relative of "is" ?

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:10 pm
by Lughaidh
Right, in these cases the indirect relative doesn't exist then.
But it does exist after "càit" though (one says càit a bheil, not càit a tha) ; it might be a solution then to find the indirect relatives:

Where will you open the door?
Càit am fosgail thu??? an doras?

Where do you like eating (??)
Càit [???] caomh leat ithe???

Am beil seo ceart?

Re: Indirect relative of "is" ?

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:41 pm
by faoileag
I think I know what you're asking us for, but the examples you choose don't always lead to that construction.

If you have a construction with is or 's , like 's urrainn dhomh, or 's toil leam / 's caomh leam in a relative clause, you need to combine the relative particle 'a' with the 'is' and you get 'as'. If the phrase also takes a preposition ('s urrainn do etc), you also need to add it in the appropriate form (to go with the subject).

An tè as urrainn dhi ar cuideachadh - the woman who can help us.
An duine as toil leam / as fheàrr leam - the man I like / prefer

Past/Conditional: a b' urrainn
Negative - nach urrainn / nach b' urrainn.

etc.

After Càite there is no relative construction - there is only the question form. That also applies to the 'is' verb, though it's harder to think of examples:

Càit an toil leat snàmh? Where do you like swimming?
Càit am b' fheàrr leat a dhol? Where would you prefer to go?
Càit am b' urrainn dhut a snàmh - where could you swim?

Hope this is what you wanted! :?:

And that it's right... :spors:

Re: Indirect relative of "is" ?

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:21 am
by Lughaidh
After Càite there is no relative construction - there is only the question form.
or are they the indirect relative particles, that now have the same form as the interrogative particles, so that they have been interpreted as if they were the interrogative particles? :farmad:

Btw, I've found another context where one undoubtedly uses the indirect relative: after "far" (and am bad's...)

Far a bheil... and it can't be interrogative here :farmad:

Have to find examples of "far (a)" + a sentence with the copula...
Maybe "The house where I prefer to be (?):
An taigh far [???] f(h)eàrr leam bhith?

In the past/conditional it's "am b(u)", I remember a verse from a song by C. Primrose, 'Cùrstaidh Brùs", that says "far am b'èibhinn leam bhith"...

mòran taing

Re: Indirect relative of "is" ?

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:35 am
by faoileag
Call it what you will - the FORM after Càite and far is the question (i.e. dependent) form.
No one's saying it means that it is necessarily a question - it's the FORM that is the issue. Call it the dependent form if you prefer.

The forms follow the question-word structure when it is a subordinate clause.
(e.g. Cuin > nuair, Càite > far)

Cuin a bhios tu ann? Bi mi ann nuair a bhios mi deiseil.
Càit am bi thu? Bidh mi far am bi mo mhàthair.

Càit an toil leat snàmh? Bidh mi a' snàmh far an toil leam an tràigh.


In negative relative clauses with 'nach' you also get the dependent form (not a question):

An duine nach eil a' fuireach an sin / an duine nach toil leam.


In prepositional relative clauses you also get this dependent form (they are not questions):

An taigh anns a bheil mi a' fuireach.

Re: Indirect relative of "is" ?

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:03 pm
by Lughaidh
Glè mhath, tha mi a' tuigs a-nise. Chan eil diofair eadar na h-interrogative particles agus na h-indirect relative particles (mar a theirear ann an Gàidhlig na h-Èireann) mar sin. Uill, tha diofair sa chèill ach sgrìobhar mar a chèile iad.
Mòran taing! :)

Re: Indirect relative of "is" ?

Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 5:13 pm
by bb3ca201
Lughaidh wrote:Right, in these cases the indirect relative doesn't exist then.
But it does exist after "càit" though (one says càit a bheil, not càit a tha) ; it might be a solution then to find the indirect relatives:

Where will you open the door?
Càit am fosgail thu??? an doras?

Where do you like eating (??)
Càit [???] caomh leat ithe???

Am beil seo ceart?
Where do you like eating - Càit as caomh (or toil) leat ithe?

Re: Indirect relative of "is" ?

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:40 am
by MarcMacUilleim
Where do you like eating - Càit as caomh (or toil) leat ithe?
There are some people who will argue that 's toil ALWAYS needs 'a bhith' when followed by a verb that you yourself are doing, and others that it doesn't at all.

I can think of at least one teacher I've had over the years who would have marked me wrong for writing "Càit' as toil leat ithe?", insisting it should be "Càit' as toil leat a bhith ag ithe?"

Re: Indirect relative of "is" ?

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:25 pm
by GunChleoc
I think the difference here between "ithe" and "a bhith ag ithe" is the same as between "Ithidh mi" and "Bidh mi ag ithe". So, it depends on context and what you want to say.

Re: Indirect relative of "is" ?

Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:19 pm
by Zwalla28
I was speaking with a native from Skye who pulled a funny face when I said, "'S toil leam leughadh" (or something of the sort) and said she wasn't sure I could say that, or at least that it sounds funny. That "a bhith" should be in there.

Re: Indirect relative of "is" ?

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:22 am
by faoileag
With activities that you can either enjoy doing OR appreciate in their own right without doing them (sport, creative things etc) it's usual to use "a bhith" if you actually like doing them yourself. A useful distinction now that the Games are on.

'S toil leam a bhith a snàmh (I do it) / 's toil leam snàmh (on TV when Scotland wins...).

Re: Indirect relative of "is" ?

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:02 am
by Níall Beag
Consider the difference between "to do" and "doing" in English. It's a wee bit fuzzy, but in general, "to do" has an implication of intention ("I want to tell her"), future ("I'm going to tell her"), obligation ("I have to tell her") or something like that, something often abstract and hypothetical.

"doing", on the other hand, is very concrete in it's meaning, so often refers to past or present events -- "I regret telling her" (past).

"Like" in English is a funny one, as it functions as either abstract or concrete: I like to run & I like running. In the hypothetical it goes almost exclusively abstract (I would like to do it). Compare with "enjoy" that always refers to concrete experience (I enjoy running).

Gaelic's a bit different from English, of course, as there is only the verbal noun, but it seems as though the verbal noun is inherently abstract. To get a concrete verbal sense (equivalent to English -ing) we tend to add a preposition (ag, air, gu, ri etc).

Here's a question...
Am I right in saying that conservatively, noun-in-general had the article, so "I like swimming" would originally have been "I like THE swimming" literally in Gaelic? Obviously I'm not rejecting the modern form - it's well established and used by native speakers, but I just wanted to check....