Ceistean

Ciamar a chanas mi.... / How do I say...
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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by Seonaidh » Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:19 pm

Like I said, for the fish shop (bùth, shop, is gramatically feminine) I'd tend to put "Mhòraig" rather than "Mòraig".

When it comes to place-names, the usual custom is to lenite in all cases and not bother with anything genitive. Thus, e.g. "Baile Dhùn Èideann", in spite of "baile" being gramatically masculine. Note also NOT "Dhùin".



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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by An Gobaire » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:27 am

These would be examples:

'S e leabhar (thing) Seumais (owner) a th' ann.
'S e bùth-èisg (thing) Moraig (owner) a th' innte.

(thing) being an object and (owner) being a proper noun.
'S e leabhar Sheumais a th' ann.

Masculine personal names lenite as well as slenderise. Female personal names only slenderise where that is possible.
Dèan buil cheart de na fhuair thu!

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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by akerbeltz » Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:20 am

When it comes to place-names, the usual custom is to lenite in all cases and not bother with anything genitive. Thus, e.g. "Baile Dhùn Èideann", in spite of "baile" being gramatically masculine. Note also NOT "Dhùin".
Mmmm this applies to the majority of place names indeed. However there is a group of masculine place names with particular endings which DO slenderise:
-bost > -boist (e.g. Siabost > muinntir Shiaboist)
-bhagh > -bhaigh (e.g. Steòrnabhagh > muinntir Steòrnabhaigh)
-pul/-bul/-bol > -il (e.g. Eurabol > muinntir Euraboil)
-stadh > staidh (e.g. Bòstadh > muinntir Bhòstaidh)

And of course place names with the article in it inflect as if they were 'normal' nouns e.g. An t-Eilean Sgitheanach > muinntir an Eilein Sgitheanaich

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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by faoileag » Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:28 pm

A Seonaidh, I would lenite the genitive name regardless of gender of noun. They are not close compounds (usually hyphenated), so there is no need to treat the genitive word (here, the name) as an agreeing adjective.

c.f.
talla-coimhearsnachd Phort Rìgh (masc close comp. noun)
eaglais-choimhearsnachd Ghlaschu (fem close comp. noun)
taigh Sheumais (m)
bàrdachd Sheumais (f)


Tha mi 'n dòchas gu bheil sin ceart, akerbeltz! :mhoire:

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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by faoileag » Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:29 pm

Ah, I missed Page 2 of this thread! :naire:

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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by ~Sìle~ » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:53 pm

:cuidich:

A bheil seo ceart:

"Bha an leabhar ràinig an-dè bho Cuilean Craicte."
Last edited by ~Sìle~ on Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by akerbeltz » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:35 pm

Chanainn Bha an leabhar a ràinig an-dè bhon Chuilean Chraicte.


There's a bit of a ... mess with the inflection of proper nouns these days. Some folk are porting this habit of not inflecting (not that English does much in the way of inflection) across to Gaelic. This leads to constructions like bho Bòrd na Gàidhlig or bho An Comunn Gàidhealach.

Personally it gives me a nosebleed when I see that, it's not the way Gaelic works and it really says volumes about the state of Gaelic if some folk feel that we need to copy English grammatical patterns.

Anyway, so some folk might say bho Chuilean Craicte or even bho Cuilean Craicte...

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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by ~Sìle~ » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:43 pm

Tapadh leibh.

I was using the sentence structures I have learned (thus far) and we haven't even encountered the word bho and its various forms in my course yet. So, I was totally winging it. I wasn't even sure of how to use ràinig, as I found it in the dictionary for arrived, along with words such as thàinig, so I knew it had various forms, but I chose the one closest to what I wanted to say which used ràinig at the beginning of the phrase and without the a preceding it to denote a verb. It seems I was way off the mark. But, I'd rather try on my own (first), raise a query, be corrected, and then post.

Thank you for taking the time to correct my effort, and taking the time to explain. It is very much appreciated.

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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by ~Sìle~ » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:50 am

A bheil seo ceart?
Tha mi cuimhne agam ga thoirt Wings (còmhla ri Paul McCartney) dhuinn.

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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by poor_mouse » Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:24 am

Chan eil.
Tha cuimhne agam...
Eilidh -- Luchag Bhochd

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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by ~Sìle~ » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:31 pm

*doh*

Tapadh leibh, poor_mouse.

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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by ~Sìle~ » Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:33 pm

Ceist eile:
Tha ceist agam...in Am Faclair Beag, the word móran has an acute accent on the o while òran has a grave accent. I thought the o in each was pronounced about the same...nach eil? Wondering why the accents are different? Móran taing!

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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by akerbeltz » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:32 am

<osna> that's where GOC has brought us to. Bah...

Not your fault. They are not the same sound, as the IPA you can see for those two entries will show. Gaelic has two o and two e sounds:
o can be /o/ or /ɔ/ (depends on the consonant environment)
ó is /o:/ (lips rounded) and ò is /ɔ:/ (lips very open)

e can be /e/ or /ɛ/ (depends on the consonant environment)
é is /e:/ (lips somewhat rounded) and è is /ɛ:/ (lips very open)

GOC merges all those (in writing) into ò and è. The Faclair Beag retains them for clarity. And of course the pronunciation was not affected by the spelling change though, as with those idiotic tèid/tàinig spellings, I have noticed it creeping into spoken Gaelic.

In theory, merging the spelling into just è and ò is not problematic but only if explained properly. There are very few words with /ɛ:/ and /o:/. So if you know which, you know that by default the others must be /e:/ and /ɔ:/. But no tutor I've ever met was aware of this.

So... bó, có, mó, mór, fón, cóig (and any derived forms) have /o:/, all others /ɔ:/ (it's late, I'm probably forgetting some, there's a comprehensive list in Blas na Gàidhlig somewhere)
sèimh, mè, gnè, stèisean, mèirleach, snèap, mèinn have /ɛ:/, any other long e sound is /e:/

Leabaidh ... duilich zzzzz

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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by Níall Beag » Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:38 am

~Sìle~ wrote:Tapadh leibh.

I was using the sentence structures I have learned (thus far) and we haven't even encountered the word bho and its various forms in my course yet. So, I was totally winging it. I wasn't even sure of how to use ràinig, as I found it in the dictionary for arrived, along with words such as thàinig, so I knew it had various forms, but I chose the one closest to what I wanted to say which used ràinig at the beginning of the phrase and without the a preceding it to denote a verb. It seems I was way off the mark. But, I'd rather try on my own (first), raise a query, be corrected, and then post.
The a that Akerbeltz added is different from the a' you will have encountered in your lessons (note the lack of apostrophe) -- this approximates which/that in English. Akerbeltz's version means "The book that arrived yesterday was from CC". If that's not what you intended, let us know.

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Re: Ceistean

Unread post by GunChleoc » Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:56 pm

Sgrìobh Níall post feumail mu dhèidhinn roimhe :)
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

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