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a th' ann vs a th' innte

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:27 pm
by MarcMacUilleim
Hi,

No problem with phrases like "'S e balach beag a th' ann", "'S e nighean bheag a th' innte" and 'S e boireannach beag a th' innte", but does the usage of "a th' ann" or "a th' innte" apply to inanimate nouns too?

E.g.

"'S e deagh cheist a th' ann" or "'S e deagh cheist a th' innte"?
"'S e deagh bheachd a th' ann" or "'S e deagh bheachd a th' innte"?
"'S e deagh sgoil a th' ann" or "'S e deagh sgoil a th' innte"?

M

Re: a th' ann vs a th' innte

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:41 pm
by akerbeltz
Beachd is masculine (the rule that words with the -(e)achd ending are feminine only applies to those longer than one syllable i.e. achd/beachd/reachd/smachd... are masculine, on the whole, or used to be)

The answer to your question is - depends. It depends on how conservative, grammatically speaking, you are. In native spoken Gaelic, the references to gender in the third person have been levelled except for objects with obvious gender. So when referring to women, girls, cows, mares, Mòrag, Calumina etc, you use i/innte. Otherwise you default to e/ann. Possibly with some notable exceptions such as aimsir and countries.

In conservative Gaelic, you would maintain that distinction based on grammatical gender across the board. My advice is usually to go with what is common (not least of all because it's easier) unless you are producing very high level Gaelic. Like writing a speech or legal document. Otherwise you run the risk of comming across as a smartarse to native speakers 8-)

Re: a th' ann vs a th' innte

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:46 pm
by MarcMacUilleim
Thanks.

Re: a th' ann vs a th' innte

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:28 am
by poor_mouse
Mar a tha mise nam bhan-Ruiseanach, tha sin car iongantach dhomh gum bi am bàta (mar eisimpleir) "innte" gu tric dà chuid sa Ghàidhlig agus sa Bheurla.

LearnGaelic:
‘S e catamaran a th’ innte. Tha an eathar dìreach air a togail <...> agus bheir i leatha mu chòig cheud cliath.

‘S i am bàta sin an as motha dhe na trì. Agus bidh na h-iasgairean air falbh bhon phort leatha sin fad na seachdain.
So, boats, ships, vessels are feminine in such constructions, I think, though in such as "bàta mòr" they are masculine. Is it so?

Re: a th' ann vs a th' innte

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:47 pm
by murchadhamac
'S e deagh cheist a th' ann. Deagh bheachd a th' ann. Deagh sgoil a th' ann. Cha chuala mi riamh an caochladh.

Re: a th' ann vs a th' innte

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:52 pm
by murchadhamac
A thaobh bàta. Ann an seann Ghàidhlig bha fireann, boireann is neuter nouns ann. Sin as caithreach gu bheil am facal a' dol an dà thaobh ann an cainnt an là an-diugh

Re: a th' ann vs a th' innte

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:25 pm
by Níall Beag
It's maybe a bit like it's in English. "It's me" throws away agreement. "It's us" seems even less complete. "Who's at the door?" "it's just some guys trying to sell encyclopedias." All the gender, number and animacy information is thrown out and replaced with a singular neuter pronoun. The same thing happens in French (c'est moi, c'est nous etc).

My point is that these types of "identification" sentences are often something of a special case and so I wouldn't be surprised to hear people use "a th' ann" irrespective of gender in this particular structure, but make a ann/innte distinction in other structures.

Re: a th' ann vs a th' innte

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:52 pm
by GunChleoc
If I may speculate: in the case of boats, gender could also depend on whether the speaker anthropomorphises the boat - and since most sailors used to be male, they would treat their boat like a female. Hence it carries gender in English sometimes, and this might also be part of the reason for a gender switch in Gaelic ;)

Re: a th' ann vs a th' innte

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:43 pm
by akerbeltz
Yes, boats, good one... they tend to be innte still. There's that rather lewd reference in Gruth is Uachdar that springs to mind, at the rèiteach, where the bodach tells the audience about the granny, in a long expose describing her as if she was a boat, cha deach ach an aon chrann a-riamh a thogail innte.

But urbanites probably wouldn't make that distinction unless they had some sailing connection. I wouldn't call a boat she in English either though my other half does, being of the sailing persuasion.

Re: a th' ann vs a th' innte

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:11 pm
by poor_mouse
Lorg mi seo:
Dwelly wrote:bàta
-aichean, sm on land f on sea...
I've seen in English before that even if the ship has a masculine proper name, it would be "she" for sailors:
Dickens (Dombey and Son) wrote: 'But when the George the Second drove ashore, ... she had near two hundred horses aboard...'
'And when,' said old Sol, 'when the Polyphemus— ... when she took fire...
The same thing with "The Ballad of the Bolivar" by Kipling: "Felt her hog and felt her sag".

it's interesting that in Gaelic there is the same thing, though the nouns (bàta, soitheach, eathar) are usually masculine.
'S dòcha gun robh an aon rud anns na Naidheachdan (BBC) mu dheidhinn bàta-aiseig.

Re: a th' ann vs a th' innte

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:17 am
by akerbeltz
it's interesting that in Gaelic there is the same thing, though the nouns (bàta, soitheach, eathar) are usually masculine.
It'll be some silly male juvenile phantasy behind it all, the fact that men jump around in it, make it go and erect masts in it :naire: