"gad fhaicinn" v "d' fhaicinn"

Ciamar a chanas mi.... / How do I say...
ithinkitsnice
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"gad fhaicinn" v "d' fhaicinn"

Unread post by ithinkitsnice » Tue May 31, 2016 6:34 pm

I'm working my way through the TAIC lessons and came across this in #20 re: idiomatic verbal expressions (toil, urrainn etc.)
When the object of the sentence is a pronoun then the pronoun is replaced by its possessive adjective placed before the verbal noun. The possessive adjectives mo , do and a (his/its) lenite the following word whenever possible:
Cha bu toil leis m' fhaicinn? - He would not like to see me?
B' fheàrr leis d' fhaicinn? - He would prefer to see you?
An urrainn dhì a thogail? - Can she lift him?
And then in one of the exercises I'm asked to tr*nsl*t*:
We can't come to see you tomorrow.
to which I answered, based on the above
Chan urrainn dhuinn a thighinn d' fhaicinn a-màireach.
but the answer actually given is
Chan urrainn dhuinn a thighinn gad fhaicinn a-màireach.
I'm already familiar with gam/gad + vn, so that's what I'd have answered had I not read that paragraph above. So my question is, when is it one or the other? My best guess is:

Chan eil me gad fhaicinn.
Chan urrainn dhomh d' fhaicinn. (directly following the verb phrase)
Chan urrainn dhomh a thighinn gad fhaicinn. (not directly following the verb phrase)

Is that correct?



ithinkitsnice
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"gad fhaicinn" v "d' fhaicinn"

Unread post by ithinkitsnice » Tue May 31, 2016 7:30 pm

I think I've found an explanation to this in my book, looks like the same as the conditions as for inversion re: direct objects and infinitives, which I still need to internalise, and that in example above with gad it's a direct object of a thighinn, not urrainn.

So:

Cha bu toil leam a faicinn.
I wouldn't like to see her.

but

Tha mi a' dol ga faicinn.
I am going to see her.

even though

Cha robh mi airson a faicinn.
I wasn't for seeing her.

and

Cha bu toil leam a dh'ol ga faicinn.
I wouldn't want to go to see her.

faoileag
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"gad fhaicinn" v "d' fhaicinn"

Unread post by faoileag » Tue May 31, 2016 10:23 pm

The gam, gad etc in the construction following a verb of motion is actually a different gam,gad from the one used as object of the present progressive. :spors:

Bha mi ga faicinn = bha mi aig a+faicinn (I was at her seeing)

Chaidh mi ga faicinn = chaidh mi do=dha +a+ faicinn > *dha* > ga+faicinn. (I went to her seeing)

Alternative route: ga = gu+a. (to=with the intention of seeing her, in order to see her)

In both cases after chaidh, it means TO, not AT.

ithinkitsnice
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"gad fhaicinn" v "d' fhaicinn"

Unread post by ithinkitsnice » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:12 am

Right, I think that makes sense given what the particle stands for, thanks. I take it that's a bit of an academic difference though? I see it has the appearance of the same paradigm (gam, gad, …).

Níall Beag
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"gad fhaicinn" v "d' fhaicinn"

Unread post by Níall Beag » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:20 pm

ithinkitsnice wrote: Right, I think that makes sense given what the particle stands for, thanks. I take it that's a bit of an academic difference though? I see it has the appearance of the same paradigm (gam, gad, …).
Not really, because for that to work, you then further complicate matters somewhat in your own head. In trying to reduce two paradigms to one, you simultaneously expand one paradigm to two: you start saying that dol/tighinn takes aig for possessive prepositional pronouns, and "a" for nouns.

The distinction's far from academic when it comes to nouns:

Tha mi a' faicinn Màiri.
Tha mi a' dol a dh'fhaicinn Màiri.
Tha mi airson Màiri fhaicinn.

ithinkitsnice
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"gad fhaicinn" v "d' fhaicinn"

Unread post by ithinkitsnice » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:57 pm

oh no, that wasn't my thinking at all. Poorly explaining myself. I think it makes sense to me now anyway. We'll see. :lol:

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