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còignear: genitive plural or dative?

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:36 am
by poor_mouse
Dwelly wrote:Cóignear bhan, five women

Am Faclair Beag wrote:cóignear /koːgʲNʲər/
fir. gin. -eir, iol. -an
five (people; followed by genitive plural)
...
dithist de dhaoine, triùir de dhaoine, ceathrar de dhaoine, cóignear de dhaoine, sianar de dhaoine, seachdnar de dhaoine, ochdnar de dhaoine, naoinear de dhaoine, deichnear de dhaoine
two people, three people, four people, five people, six people, seven people, eight people, nine people, ten people

I think the form 'de dhaoine' is of dative plural?

còignear: genitive plural or dative?

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:19 am
by GunChleoc

còignear: genitive plural or dative?

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:00 pm
by poor_mouse
Chan eil "dithist de dhaoine" amsaa ann...

còignear: genitive plural or dative?

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:33 pm
by akerbeltz
The dhaoine in dithis de dhaoine is nominative plural, if it was dative plural, it would have to end in -(a)ibh.

Chan eil "dithist de dhaoine" amsaa ann...

Of course it exists. Usually though, it will end up getting translated as "two of..." for example "dithis de mhic Chaluim", two of Calum's sons but putting that into a dictionary entry is tricky.

còignear: genitive plural or dative?

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:56 pm
by poor_mouse
Mòran taing!

So, "de" goes with nominative; a thought that with dative.
And is "aig daoinibh" a correct form for dative plural?

còignear: genitive plural or dative?

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:00 pm
by akerbeltz
Nobody uses the dative plural -(a)ibh anymore except for a) poetic language b) frozen forms.

Simple prepositions are notionally followed by the dative but except for formal language where feminine singular nouns slenderise (bròg > air bròig), the effects of the definite article aside, they are followed by the nominative. I mean, you could look at tha cuileag air a' bhròg and say that notionally bhròg is a dative because it follows air but really that's splitting hairs because it's the same as the nominative. The only thing that really changes is the definite article which is by default the leniting article after a simple preposition i.e.
am¹ balach a'² chaileag
air a'² bhalach air a'² chaileag

còignear: genitive plural or dative?

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:36 pm
by poor_mouse
Mòran taing a-rithist!