Verbal noun of 'saying' (a' ràdh or ag ràdh?)

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Ionatan
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Verbal noun of 'saying' (a' ràdh or ag ràdh?)

Unread post by Ionatan » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:53 pm

I am about to make a set of Anki cards for personal consumption on the irregular verbs and I came across a possibly minor issue. In Can Seo I have recently learnt phrases like:

Tha e a' ràdh gu/m.... (as per Can Seo) (I have double checked and it IS a + apostrophe in the Can Seo book)

but when I was looking for an audio clip to add to my Anki card, I saw that the LearnGaelic dictionary lists it as ag ràdh. Which is right? Is this a change post modernisation (Can Seo predates those changes) or possibly a dialect thing (Can Seo states that it uses the Skye Dialect as its reference)?

Having just learnt it, I was dismayed to find I possibly should be saying 'ag' where I am saying "a'".



AlexAkimov
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Verbal noun of 'saying' (a' ràdh or ag ràdh?)

Unread post by AlexAkimov » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:00 pm

Normally it would be a' before a verbal noun starting with a consonant i.e. a' cluiche, a' sgrìobhadh etc, but this is an exception. I can't remember the explanation but it's "usually" ag ràdh. However, this is Gaelic so expect exceptions to the exceptions :lol:

Níall Beag
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Verbal noun of 'saying' (a' ràdh or ag ràdh?)

Unread post by Níall Beag » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:49 pm

It's a wee exception. Where other words starting with consonants lost the G before them, "ràdh" held onto it as "ag ràdh". Maybe at some point in the future, people will end up writing "a' gràdh", but for now, everyone writes it as "ag ràdh".

This sort of movement of consonants happens in English too, but that's a whole nother matter. :priob:

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Verbal noun of 'saying' (a' ràdh or ag ràdh?)

Unread post by akerbeltz » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:04 pm

but for now, everyone writes it as "ag ràdh".
No. There is ag ràdh and a' gràdh(a) (plus a lot of other variantions) i.e. in some areas, the g has fused fully onto the verbal noun. You can tell it has fused because in those dialects, the lenited verbal noun ends up being ghràdh(a), for example bu toil leam a ràdh vs bu toil leam a ghràdh(a).

The a' ràdh vs ag ràdh variation also exists and is legit, though a' ràdh as a verbal noun is rarer than ag ràdh.

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Verbal noun of 'saying' (a' ràdh or ag ràdh?)

Unread post by Ionatan » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:29 am

Fascinating stuff! In Can Seo they had explained that it was ag before a vowel and a' before a noun, (it seems logical and easier to say) but I had forgotten they'd said this explicitly, and I was starting the (re)learn this by inference. So the question was worth it just for this revision.
The a' ràdh vs ag ràdh variation also exists and is legit, though a' ràdh as a verbal noun is rarer than ag ràdh.
They do reference other dialects in the Can Seo series and include some language sequences in them. But I'd assumed they'd picked the Skye dialect as being a common one (in the absence of the equivalent of English's Received Pronunciation). So, I have a dilemma now. Do I re-learn this as ag ràdh or stick to what Dr Donald John MacLeod, author of Can Seo, has prescribed? It may even be that the good Doctor prescribed a' ràdh deliberately for the sake of consistency despite it being rarer, given that it is actually legit (meaning one less exception for a neophyte to remember).

By contrast, imagine trying to codify every spelling and variation of English dialects - we'd regain the second person singular for a start and then argue as to whether to spell it thee or tha (depending on where in north Englandshire you come from). In Gàidhlig though, seeing things like this actually gives it the feel of language as a living thing, as opposed to a static set of regulations (as is the case for most modern languages) - this is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. It makes the journey harder, but more interesting.

Ceud taing, for your patience and help. Sometimes I feel like I'm currently monopolising this section of the board with all my question so I hope you guys don't mind and rest assured that I really appreciate the very informative replies.
Last edited by Ionatan on Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Verbal noun of 'saying' (a' ràdh or ag ràdh?)

Unread post by Níall Beag » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:28 pm

Ionatan wrote:Ceud taing, for your patience and help. Sometimes I feel like I'm currently monopolising this section of the board with all my question so I hope you guys don't mind and rest assured that I really appreciate the very informative replies.
I asked at least as many questions when I was at your stage -- don't worry about it!!

If you want to feel less like you're monopolising, then just encourage more people to join! ;-)

Ionatan
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Verbal noun of 'saying' (a' ràdh or ag ràdh?)

Unread post by Ionatan » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:58 pm

Níall Beag wrote:
I asked at least as many questions when I was at your stage -- don't worry about it!!
That is very encouraging!. The most encouraging thing about what you said is "when I was at your stage". Sometimes I can't help but "look down" (DON'T LOOK DOWN) and see the vast abyss of what I don't know which can be so demoralising. So, to know of other people who have 'been through it' ahead of you is great.

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