bhitheas vs bhios and bithidh vs bidh

Ciamar a chanas mi.... / How do I say...
Níall Beag
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Re: bhitheas vs bhios and bithidh vs bidh

Unread post by Níall Beag » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:13 am

akerbeltz wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:30 pm
I don't think Niall's explanation above is quite right. Dependent and independent verbs in Gaelic are fairly well defined concepts and that's nothing to do with the juxtaposition of sentences.
The distinction between dependent and independent is an established concept in linguistics in general, and functions at a clausal level. The only wrinkle in Gaelic is the reanalysis of copular constructions as pre-verbal particles. That's not a major wrinkle though, as the same logic holds -- the verb's meaning is dependent on what preceded it.
It merely boils down to what particle sits in front of the verb. In Gaelic, that boils down to 3 options:
It manifests itself in the particles in front of the verb. The distinction in meaning is why we use the particle.

I mean we wouldn't say the main distinction between "duck" and "goose" is the word -- the real difference is the meaning of what the words refer to.



GunChleoc
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Re: bhitheas vs bhios and bithidh vs bidh

Unread post by GunChleoc » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:52 pm

And some good news for you: bi is actually regular in the future tense!

Base form: bi

Independent: base + -idh = bidh
Dependent: base = bi
Relative: lenited base + -as = bhios. The only departure from the regular verbs here is the spelling; the pronunciation is the same.

You might find these verb tables useful: https://www.foramnagaidhlig.net/index.php?page=142
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

Ionatan

Re: bhitheas vs bhios and bithidh vs bidh

Unread post by Ionatan » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:10 pm

GunChleoc wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:52 pm
And some good news for you: bi is actually regular in the future tense!
Say what?!? :o What is this "regular" of which you speak? Seriously though, this is moderately encouraging.

GunChleoc
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Re: bhitheas vs bhios and bithidh vs bidh

Unread post by GunChleoc » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:08 am

Regular future tense forms are:

Independent: add -(a)idh
Dependent: Use base form
Relative: Lenite and add -(i)eas

Examples:

ith

Ithidh mi ubhal
An ith thu ubhal? - Thuirt mi gun ith!
Seo cuideigin a dh'itheas ubhal

gabh

Gabhaidh mi cupan tì
An gabh thu cupan tì? - Thuirt mi gun gabh!
Seo cuideigin a ghabhas cupan tì

bi

bidh mi ann
Am bi thu ann? - Thuirt mi gum bi!
Seo chuideigin a bhios ann
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

akerbeltz
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Re: bhitheas vs bhios and bithidh vs bidh

Unread post by akerbeltz » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:32 am

The distinction between dependent and independent is an established concept in linguistics in general, and functions at a clausal level. The only wrinkle in Gaelic is the reanalysis of copular constructions as pre-verbal particles. That's not a major wrinkle though, as the same logic holds -- the verb's meaning is dependent on what preceded it.
Good luck trying to get 99% of learners to even understand that, never mind construct a grammatical sentence using those instructions. :roll:

Níall Beag
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Re: bhitheas vs bhios and bithidh vs bidh

Unread post by Níall Beag » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:01 am

akerbeltz wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:32 am
The distinction between dependent and independent is an established concept in linguistics in general, and functions at a clausal level. The only wrinkle in Gaelic is the reanalysis of copular constructions as pre-verbal particles. That's not a major wrinkle though, as the same logic holds -- the verb's meaning is dependent on what preceded it.
Good luck trying to get 99% of learners to even understand that, never mind construct a grammatical sentence using those instructions. :roll:
I wasn't talking to 99% of learners -- I was responding to you and what you'd said. And what do you mean by that last part anyway?

Ionatan

Re: bhitheas vs bhios and bithidh vs bidh

Unread post by Ionatan » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:58 am

GunChleoc wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:08 am
Regular future tense forms are:

Independent: add -(a)idh
Dependent: Use base form
Relative: Lenite and add -(i)eas
Thanks for those examples - that was very useful. That is exactly what Can Seo was try to teach and it's a lot clearer now!
Thanks to everybody for their help!

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