Genitive - lenition wthout article

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gordonmaloney
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Genitive - lenition wthout article

Unread post by gordonmaloney » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:35 pm

Sin sibhse,

Another genitive question from me (!). Does there exist somewhere a simple explanation for when you lenite a genitive noun that doesn't have an article?

I had always understood the rule to basically be:
1) If it's in the plural
2) If it's a masculine name
3) If it's part of a compound with a feminine noun (màthair-chèile vs athair-cèile)
4) Or if there's lenition caused on the first part (am fear-ciùil vs leis an fhear-chiùil)

But Calder's Gaelic Grammar gives a ton of examples where the genitive is lenited in compound words that I'm not sure I understand. Digging into it, he says that the second noun is always lenited in compounds. Is it the distinction between "loose" and "close" compounds as described here? http://www.akerbeltz.org/index.php?titl ... ound_nouns If so, why is it "glainne-fiona" and not "glainne-fhiona"?

Cuidichibh mi pls, I am lost :? :? :?



gordonmaloney
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Re: Genitive - lenition wthout article

Unread post by gordonmaloney » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:02 am

A couple examples from the Calder book that I can't for the life of me work out. He says that the second noun is lenited if it's in the plural or "like an adjective accompanying a noun" (which I took to mean if the first noun in the compound is feminine, as in "màthair-chèile" above).

..but then he gives "lùth-chleas" for "feat of agility" - lùth is masculine and not slender, cleas is singular - so why "chleas"?? 😫

Similarly, "arm-chrios" for "swordbelt", "fraoch-bheinn" for "heathy hill", or "leth-shùil" for "one eye" (not sure??), where "arm", "fraoch" and "leth" are all masculine.

Is it that the genitive is really the plural, but without the suffix? For instance, in the example above I'd have the genitive plural for cleas as "chleasan", and for crios as "chriosan" (though I also don't quite understand why that's arm-chrios and not "crios-arm"?)

Or are these things different structurally from, for example, "uisge-beatha", "athair-cèile" or "fear-ciùil"? If so, how?

gordonmaloney
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Re: Genitive - lenition wthout article

Unread post by gordonmaloney » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:11 am

Here's what's in Faclair na Pàrlamaid, but that doesn't help me understand the Calder examples! It also, to compound my confusion even further, gives "glainne-fhiona", with lenition, for wineglass - that's what I would've expected following the rules, if I hadn't heard "glainne-fiona" lots, and which is in the Akerbeltz example above...


LENITION WITHIN NOUN PHRASES
1 In closely bound compounds (taken here as being equivalent to hyphenated words) a
noun in the genitive qualifying (following) another noun will be lenited or not as a qualifying
adjective would be in the same position (according to the rules given in Calder A Gaelic
Grammar).
Examples:
plana-gnìomha (masc) ‘action plan’ without lenition;
buidheann-ghnìomha (fem) ‘action group’ with lenition (cf. glaine-fhìona, a wine glass).
2 In non-closely bound compounds (here taken as non-hyphenated groups) the qualifying
genitive noun will not be lenited.
Example:
buidheann (fem) comhairleachaidh ‘an advisory body’ without lenition (cf. glaine fìona, a
glass of wine).

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Re: Genitive - lenition wthout article

Unread post by GunChleoc » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:43 am

For words like lùth-chleas, "lùth" is carrying the stress, and such stressed prefixes always lenite, but do not trigger the genitive case. Other examples are deagh-, seann-, ro-, mòr-, dì-, mì-

So, it's "am mì-fhortan", (adjective mì-fhortanach) and NOT am mì-f(h)ortain.
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

gordonmaloney
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Re: Genitive - lenition wthout article

Unread post by gordonmaloney » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:48 pm

So the rule is as above, but if the stress is on the first word of a compound then it always lenites? Is the Faclair na Pàrlamaid wrong then, or just oversimplifying it?

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Re: Genitive - lenition wthout article

Unread post by gordonmaloney » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:50 pm

And droch/etc aren't really the same are they, as they're not nouns and therefore don't cause genitivisation, no? Or is the lenition totally separate from it being genitive?

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Re: Genitive - lenition wthout article

Unread post by taic » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:10 pm

In the noun-noun compounds mentioned you have a break from normal word order. The second noun would conventionally be in the genitive, e.g. :
beinn fhraoiche > fraoch-bheinn ; cleas lùtha > lùth-chleas
This is analogous to adjective-noun compounds : beinn mhòr > mòr-bheinn
In both cases the second element is always lenited whenever possible.
There are a few common nouns that are nearly always used in this way: e.g. bun (basic) - bun-chùrsa, bun-reachd, bun-nòta etc.
These compounds are conceptual units. They take the appropriate article of the main (second) noun. Only the second element can be declined:
An fhraoch-bheinn > air an fhraoch-bheinn > bidean na fraoch-bheinne;
A' bhun-sgoil > anns a' bhun-sgoil > meud na bun-sgoile
Nach iongantach an rud a th' ann ann

gordonmaloney
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Re: Genitive - lenition wthout article

Unread post by gordonmaloney » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:29 pm

That's super helpful - thank you Taic!

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