What's the difference? (infinitives issue)

Ciamar a chanas mi.... / How do I say...
deardron
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What's the difference? (infinitives issue)

Unread post by deardron » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:10 am

Quote:
Faodar coimhead air gnothaichean na Pàrlamaid air-loidhne tro TBh Taigh an Ròid. Tron làraich seo, faodar coimhead air gnothaichean an t-Seòmair-deasbaid, agus nan Comataidhean fhad's a tha iad a' dol air adhart, no faodar a choimhead orra an dèidh làimh tro ar tasglann far an tèid clàradh de gach coinneamh phàrlamaideach a chumail fad cola deug.

Tha bhideo goirid ann mu gach BPA agus faodar a choimhead orra uile tro TBh Taigh an Ròid.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/l ... m-home.htm
Sorry for those who don't understand what this quote says, if anyone wishes, I can translayte (:lol:) it tomorrow. The question is obviously clear: why the examples in red with 'air + subst.' have a non-lenited infinitive, but the examples in blue with 'air + pron. > orra' show a lenited infinitive preceeded by 'a'?



neoni
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Unread post by neoni » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:36 am

according to grammar rules, the red examples are what is correct, but almost everybody slips the a (+h) in, just to make it more natural to say.

i was taught that it was okay to say "faodar a choimead air" but that we shouldn't write it - i think that's just to keep things simple for learners though.

you get similar things with phrases like;
"an leabhar a chaidh a sgrìobhadh ann an 1998"
the a does nothing, and grammatically shouldn't be there, but lots of people say it.


the a (+h) has also worked its way into standard irregularities that most people accept with the words dol and tighinn - "feumaidh mi a dhol dhachaigh" etc.

Seonaidh
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Unread post by Seonaidh » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:22 pm

neoni wrote:you get similar things with phrases like;
"an leabhar a chaidh a sgrìobhadh ann an 1998"
the a does nothing, and grammatically shouldn't be there, but lots of people say it.
"An leabhar a chaidh a sgrìobhadh" - 's e "its" a th' ann an seo - "The book that went its writing", mar anns a' Chuimris - "Y llyfr a gafodd ei ysgrifennu" (The book that got its writing).
Grammatically, it should be there as its does something.
But "faodar coimhead air..." is another matter entirely, like Welsh "Gellir edrych ar" (similar meaning) - no "a".

amhlaobh
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Unread post by amhlaobh » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:21 pm

It should also be noted that Gaelic doesn't have an infinitive although the verbal noun that is used here gets translated with an infinitive in English (i.e. they verbal nouns have a similar function to infinitives in some constructions).
Coimhead, sgrìobhad etc in the examples are verbal nouns, which are nothing other than nouns, they're not verbs!

deardron
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Unread post by deardron » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:17 pm

amhlaobh wrote:It should also be noted that Gaelic doesn't have an infinitive although the verbal noun that is used here gets tr*nsl***** with an infinitive in English (i.e. they verbal nouns have a similar function to infinitives in some constructions).
Coimhead, sgrìobhad etc in the examples are verbal nouns, which are nothing other than nouns, they're not verbs!
Amhlaobh, in traditional grammar infinitives too are considered verbal nouns ;)

Níall Beag
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Unread post by Níall Beag » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:23 pm

Seonaidh wrote: "An leabhar a chaidh a sgrìobhadh" - 's e "its" a th' ann an seo - "The book that went its writing"
You seem to be suggesting that this is a reflexive-as-passive construction, but I don't see how it can be -- the only candidate for the subject is the "iad" incorporated in "orra", but that's not "a" -- that's "an"....

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Unread post by Seonaidh » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:01 pm

Wye no me aald marra - "An leabhar a chaidh a sgrìobhadh" is, I reckon, a passivoid thing. But it's not the same sort of cystrawen as "faodar a choimhead orra an dèidh...". Dè sin? Tha mi a' creidsinn "One may look at them after...", mar a' Chuimris "Gellir edrych arnynt ar ol...". Bu e ceàrr ag ràdh "Gellir i edrych arnynt ar ol..." (i anns a' Chuimris = do, dha, a, a dh' anns a' Ghàidhlig).

amhlaobh
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Unread post by amhlaobh » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:54 am

deardron wrote: Amhlaobh, in traditional grammar infinitives too are considered verbal nouns ;)
How do you mean? General linguistic grammar theory or Gaelic grammar books (or web sites etc)? If the latter, then repetition of a Gaelic "Infinitive" doesn't make it better - it can only be that English grammar categories are used for a different language without thinking.
If the former, I must admit I've never seen it: an infinitive is commonly a form of the verb that doesn't show person, number, tense etc. (although rules what constitutes an infinitive differs from language to language), which doesn't really fit as a description of a verbal noun.
I would be interested to get more information about this topic if you have!

JoP
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Infinitives

Unread post by JoP » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:11 pm

I guess what really interests us beginners is how to tr*nsl*t* infinitive phrases from English where they are very common. It seems that you have to nominalise the phrase using the verbal noun in Gaelic.

The phrases in some of the previous posts with the passive seem to use the possessive adjective plus the verbal noun - therefore the 'a' represents 'his' but in a phrase like 'tha mi a' dol a sheinn' the 'a' I seem to remember lenites the verbal noun because it represents 'do' or to.

So - how would we represent the following in gaelic. Here are my beginners attempts and I'd be grateful if anyone could comment on them.

I want to sing - tha mi ag iarraidh a sheinn?
I want him to sing - tha mi ga h-iarraidh a sheinn?
I try to sing - tha mi a' feuchainn a sheinn?
I like to sing - Is toigh leam a sheinn?
I like to sing it - Is toigh leam ga sheinn
I like him to sing -
I'm getting a bit stuck with this - I presume it is some sort of nominal phrase like "Is toigh leam a sheinn" = it pleases me his singing?, but "Is toiigh leam a seinn" - I like her to sing?
I persuade him to sing - tha mi a' toirt air a sheinn
I persuade her to sing - tha mi a' toirt orre a sheinn
I teach him to sing - Tha mi ga h-ionnsaich a sheinn
I teach him to sing it - tha mi ga h-ionnsaich ga sheinn

Seonaidh
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Re: Infinitives

Unread post by Seonaidh » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:11 pm

JoP wrote:I guess what really interests us beginners is how to tronsloot infinitive phrases from English where they are very common. It seems that you have to nominalise the phrase using the verbal noun in Gaelic.

The phrases in some of the previous posts with the passive seem to use the possessive adjective plus the verbal noun - therefore the 'a' represents 'his' but in a phrase like 'tha mi a' dol a sheinn' the 'a' I seem to remember lenites the verbal noun because it represents 'do' or to.

So - how would we represent the following in gaelic. Here are my beginner's attempts and I'd be grateful if anyone could comment on them.

I want to sing - tha mi ag iarraidh a sheinn?
I want him to sing - tha mi ga h-iarraidh a sheinn?
I try to sing - tha mi a' feuchainn a sheinn?
I like to sing - Is toigh leam a sheinn?
I like to sing it - Is toigh leam ga sheinn
I like him to sing -
I'm getting a bit stuck with this - I presume it is some sort of nominal phrase like "Is toigh leam a sheinn" = it pleases me his singing?, but "Is toiigh leam a seinn" - I like her to sing?
I persuade him to sing - tha mi a' toirt air a sheinn
I persuade her to sing - tha mi a' toirt orre a sheinn
I teach him to sing - Tha mi ga h-ionnsaich a sheinn
I teach him to sing it - tha mi ga h-ionnsaich ga sheinn
I want to sing - Bu toil leam seinn, Tha mi ag iarraidh seinn
I want him to sing - not what you have - that's "I want him" followed by "to sing", i.e. "him" is object of "want". You'd probably need to say owt like "Tha mi ag iarraidh airson a sheinn" - no doubt others will ken a better way of putting it.
I like to sing it - 'S toil leam ga s[h]einn (depends whether "it" is a boy or a girl)
I teach him to sing - again, you've got "teach him", rather than "teach to sing" Really, you're teaching singing to him, n'est-ce pas? "Tha mi ag ionnsachadh seinn dha", mevvies.

Note that a'/ag is short for aig, while a (and, before a vowel or fh-vowel, nothing) is (you could say) short for do etc. Forms such as ga, gur etc. come from compressing "aig" with a personal pronoun, e.g. a or ur. They can only be used where the person is the direct object (just as in Welsh, though I don't spose that's much help).

Often, where you might stick in a "to" in English, you divven't need to in Gaelic, e.g.
I like to sing - 'S toil leam seinn [Is toigh leam seinn to be precise]
I like singing - 'S toil leam seinn
You could call "singing" the verbnoun if you wanted to. However, once you start on more specific things, you get this:-
I like to sing songs - 'S toil leam òrain a sheinn
I like singing songs - 'S toil leam òrain a sheinn
That is, if your verbnoun actually has a direct object itself, you stick it in front and add in the "a", with leniency. NB: not before a vowel etc, e.g.:-
I like teaching Welsh - 'S toil leam Cuimris ionnsachadh
I like getting parlattick - 'S toil leam pòiteach fhaighinn

Now, as for all this "what is an infinitive", "what is a verbnoun" nonsense, it's a fact that no two languages have a one-to-one into and onto mapping, so there's bound to be some subtle differences. What's important, however, is how the various languages actually work. It is not particularly helpful, in trying to foster that knowledge, to split hairs over what is or is not a verbnoun, an infinitive or whatever. Indeed, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of folk who are fluent in both Gaelic and English wouldn't know a verbnoun - or an infinitive - if one came up to them in the street and said "Hello". What they do know, however, is how to use both languages, which is rather more important.

neoni
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Unread post by neoni » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:54 pm

I want to sing - tha mi ag iarraidh seinn
I want him to sing - tha mi ag iarraidh air seinn
I try to sing - tha mi a' feuchainn ri seinn
I like to sing - Is toigh leam seinn
I like to sing it - Is toigh leam a sheinn (gam/gad/etc only come where you would have ag/a' - otherwise you just use the posesive pronouns - "feumaidh tu mo chuideachadh"
I like him to sing - (not sure what the english here means) 's toil leam nuair a sheinneas e (?)
I persuade him to sing - tha mi a' toirt air seinn
I persuade her to sing - tha mi a' toirt oirre seinn
I teach him to sing - Tha mi ga theagasg seinn
I teach him to sing it - tha mi ga teagasg a sheinn


i'd say. have a look at this thread - http://www.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f= ... a&start=15

amhlaobh
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Re: Infinitives

Unread post by amhlaobh » Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:50 am

Seonaidh wrote:nonsense,
Chan eil adhbhar ann a bhi mi-mhodhail.

Leugh na BB-riaghailtean:
Be nice
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faoileag
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Unread post by faoileag » Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:07 am

Chan eil mise a' chreidsinn gun robh sin 'mi-mhodhail' - 's e beachd aige gu simplidh, na bha e a' mineachadh cuideachd, agus 's e abairt 'colloquial' gu math aotrom a th' ann co-dhiù, beagan coltach ri 'stuth'.

Robust, but not offensive or personal.

IMO :D

JoP
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Infinitives

Unread post by JoP » Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:27 am

So if I've got this right if the infinitive in English has no object then you just use the verbal noun

I want to see = Tha mi ag iarraidh faicinn

and if the infinitive has an object then the object comes before the infinitive and the infinitive is preceded by the possessive pronoun (leniting the infinitve or not depending on what the personal pronoun is)

I want to see the house = Tha mi ag iarraidh an taigh a fhaicinn

I want to see the sea = Tha mi ag iarraidh a’ mhuir a faicinn

And

I want to see him/her = Tha mi ag iarraidh a fhacainn / a faicinn

And you want to see me = Tha sibh ag iarraidh mo fhaicinn?

Have I got it?

neoni
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Unread post by neoni » Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:10 pm

JoP, close
if there is an object, then you just add a and lenition, regardless of the gender of the object. BUT, if the object is a pronoun in english "me/you/he/her/they/etc" then you use the posessive, with no other object.
for example;
an taigh (masc)
i want to buy the house
tha mi ag iarraidh an taigh a cheannach
i want to buy it (the house, masc)
tha mi ag iarraidh a cheannach

a' bhùth (fem)
i want to buy the shop
tha mi ag iarraidh a' bhùth a cheannach
i want to buy it (the shop, fem)
tha mi ag iarraidh a ceannach (i am wanting her buying)


you picked, perhaps, a bad example, because ones beginning with F and then a vowel work differently - when lenited, they absorb the vowel before it;
what would grammatically be mo fhaicinn becomes m' fhaicinn and a fhaicinn becomes, simply, fhaicinn
"tha mi ag iarraidh an duine fhaicinn"
"tha mi ag iarraidh fhaicinn"

if you are using something that doesn't lenite (i want to see her), then it works as normal, with the a still there - "tha mi ag iarraidh a faicinn"

faoileag wrote:Chan eil mise a' chreidsinn gun robh sin 'mi-mhodhail' - 's e beachd aige gu simplidh, na bha e a' mineachadh cuideachd, agus 's e abairt 'colloquial' gu math aotrom a th' ann co-dhiù, beagan coltach ri 'stuth'.

Robust, but not offensive or personal.

IMO :D
yup, bidh mise a' cleachdadh nonsense gu math tric, gun a bhith (a' feuchain ri bhith) mì-mhodhail idir

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