grammar sentences

Ciamar a chanas mi.... / How do I say...
GunChleoc
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Unread post by GunChleoc » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:41 am

scotlandlove1 wrote:
The verb is cluich, the verbal noun is cluiche. So, the -e has nothing to do with the lenition. The lenited forms are chluich and chluiche, respectively.
so it’s more like:
2. With is + something + preposition, the word order changes, and you use a + lenited verbal noun instead of a'/ag with the regular verbal noun:
Yes, that's it.

scotlandlove1 wrote:
Tha mi air cluiche (I am after playing)
huh? “i am after playing” -> this doesn’t make sense in English…
In Scottish English it does. It means you have just finished doing it.

scotlandlove1 wrote:
d. gum/gun is the complementiser that, not the relative pronoun.
what is a ‘complementiser’ ?
The complementiser "that" is there to link a subordinate clause to another clause. Maybe I'll just give a few English examples:

I said that I went there
Do you think that this will work?

Do you see what it does? If not, I'll have to hunt for a better way of explaining it.

scotlandlove1 wrote:
It's an extra tense.
so the extra tense is:
‘tha’ + pers pron + ‘air’ + object + verbal noun = “to have just done something” , correct?
Correct. And if you have an object, you'll need to add a and lenite the verbal noun. Just like in "B' àbhaist dhomh video games a chluiche", it's the same rule for the object and the verbal noun.
scotlandlove1 wrote:
a. While there are quite a number of irregular genitive forms, there is a general rule.
http://www.akerbeltz.org/beaga....._cases.htm
I think I’d rather memorize them by heart. That page is a bit confusing.
I have condensed the information on that page to a little shorthand table for myself. PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you a copy.

The genitive singular rule:

Masculine:

Slenderise the noun and the adjective. Lenite the adjective. If the article is present, lenite the noun as well.

balach beag -> taigh balaich bhig -> taigh a' bhalaich bhig


Feminine:

Slenderise the noun and the adjective and add an -e

caileag bheag -> taigh caileige bige -> taigh na caileige bige

You have a lot more irregular feminine genitives than irregular masculine genitives. But there are some patterns there as well. e.g. dùthaich -> dùthcha, bùth -> bùtha add an -a.


Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

Níall Beag
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Unread post by Níall Beag » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:18 pm

GunChleoc wrote:
scotlandlove1 wrote:huh? “i am after playing” -> this doesn’t make sense in English…
In Scottish English it does. It means you have just finished doing it.
No it does not!!!! There is no such structure in Scottish English. You may be thinking of Hiberno-English -- what they speak in Ireland.

I'd previously heard this structure mentioned in course materials relating to varieties of English, and the first time I heard it in the wild was last month... when I was working in Derry.

In my experience, "I'm after" would normally be followed by a noun and would mean "I'm trying to get" -- after in the sense of "pursuing" something.

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Unread post by neoni » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:27 pm

i hear it all the time here

GunChleoc
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Unread post by GunChleoc » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:48 pm

I read about this construction and the confusion it can cause in my little Scots Kauderwelsch book, and I've seen it mentioned someplace else before, which is why I chose it as explanation. The someplace else might indeed have been Hiberno-English, I can't remember now. Maybe it depends on your dialect? :smaoin:
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

neoni
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Unread post by neoni » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:30 pm

it is definitely used in scottish english, perhaps not in central belt dialects

GunChleoc
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Unread post by GunChleoc » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:31 am

Tapadh leat airson an fhiosrachaidh seo
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

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Unread post by An Gobaire » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:35 pm

My mother is Scottish, and she uses it occasionally too. I recall her using it when I was younger, and in fact, I remember I've used it myself. I'm Scottish too!
Dèan buil cheart de na fhuair thu!

horogheallaidh
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Unread post by horogheallaidh » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:07 pm

my folks are both central belt and i remember hearing some of the relatives us it, eg;

you'll be after your tea then = you'll have had your tea then

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Unread post by Seonaidh » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:13 pm

But the word "air" is usually translated as "on", not "after"

"Tha mi mu dheireadh mo shuipear fhaighinn", indeed!

The important thing is not how one might literally render such a thing into English - or any other language - but what the Gaelic construction actually is and roughly how it relates to other languages that might be more familiar to the reader. e.g. if possible one should avoid things like "I've eaten my food. Now, how do I say that in Gaelic? Oh yes, it's that "air" thingie..." but, instead, try to get used to thinking in the Gaelic way to start with. Not easy for native English speakers constantly exposed to reinforcement of their native tongue. But in time you might find yourself naturally thinking "Tha mi air mo bhiadh ithe", without having to tr*nsl*t* every word, remember the right preposition to use and the right word order to follow. And it's so much easier if you can do that!

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Unread post by neoni » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:13 am

many dialects use air and an dèidh interchangeably in that structure

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Unread post by Níall Beag » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:18 am

Irish is all about the an déidh.

But you can start to understand "air" through English too.

Think of this real question from the internet, which uses a slightly archaic form:
What do you do upon finishing a text?
ie "what do you do when you have just finished a text"

The sentence structure is different, but the preposition "on"/"upon" has an almost identical sense to the Gaelic.

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Unread post by AlasdairBochd » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:20 am

Leugh mi àitegin gu robh "iar" air am facal "air", leis a chiall "after", air thùs. Smuain mi gu robh sin ann an Dwelly's ach cha do lorg mi an siud e.

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