Sùil air a' mhearachd

Ciamar a chanas mi.... / How do I say...
User avatar
GunChleoc
Rianaire
Posts: 4434
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 am
Language Level: Mion-chùiseach
Corrections: Please correct my grammar
Location: Dùthaich mo chridhe
Contact:

Unread postby GunChleoc » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:41 am

Seo na fhuair mi:

Bho chlann

ann am batail

Ged a tha

gu bràth


Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

Níall Beag
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:58 pm
Language Level: Chan eil gaidhlig agam agus cha bhi
Location: Dún Èideann, Alba
Contact:

Unread postby Níall Beag » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:58 am

Although a lion is a sleep, a bit of valour will live forever. (?)
Nice.

Edit: too much time speaking to Spanish people -- I wrote "leave" instead of "live".
Last edited by Níall Beag on Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
akerbeltz
Rianaire
Posts: 1729
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:26 am
Language Level: Barail am broinn baraille
Corrections: Please don't analyse my Gaelic
Location: Glaschu
Contact:

Unread postby akerbeltz » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:02 pm

Aidh, tha thu ceart, gunchleoc ach tha barrachd ann fhathast!

faoileag
Maor
Posts: 1455
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:19 am

Unread postby faoileag » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:05 pm

nan ceudan
an leòmhann na chadal
bidh a chuid treuntais
bas sa bheatha?(death in life?)
bas na bheatha? (death in his life?)

User avatar
akerbeltz
Rianaire
Posts: 1729
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:26 am
Language Level: Barail am broinn baraille
Corrections: Please don't analyse my Gaelic
Location: Glaschu
Contact:

Unread postby akerbeltz » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:18 am

Gheibh thu na an àite no sa Ghàidhlig uaireannan, tha sin ceart gu leòr.

Ok, cò dh'fheuchas ris an rud gu lèir ath sgrìobhadh gu ceart?

User avatar
GunChleoc
Rianaire
Posts: 4434
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 am
Language Level: Mion-chùiseach
Corrections: Please correct my grammar
Location: Dùthaich mo chridhe
Contact:

Unread postby GunChleoc » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:37 am

Bho Chlann Fhriseal

Dhan t-sàr-ghaisgeach dheas threun
ann am batail nan ceudan
cha bu lapach san leum ud thu

ged a tha an leòmhann na chadal
bidh a chuid treuntais beò gu bràth

bàs no beatha


Friseal lenites because of Clann - right? Does it slenderise as well?

I'm not sure about the cha bu lapach thing, since lapach is not a noun. Don't I need to use something like cha b' ann lapach...?

And the last line is pretty much impossible, since there is no tr*nsl*t**n and we don't know what they actually want to say.
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

User avatar
akerbeltz
Rianaire
Posts: 1729
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:26 am
Language Level: Barail am broinn baraille
Corrections: Please don't analyse my Gaelic
Location: Glaschu
Contact:

Unread postby akerbeltz » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:25 pm

Bho Chlann Friseal

Dhan t-sàr-ghaisgeach deas treun
ann am batail nan ceud(an)
cha bu lapach san leum ud thu

ged a tha an leòmhann na chadal
bidh a chuid treuntais beò gu bràth

bàs no beatha


Deagh oidhirp!

Three things:
No lenition of Friseal. If it was an adjective, Frisealach, then yes. I *think* it ought to be Clann Friseil, based on the formation of Clann Dòmhnaill but I must admit that the formation of clan names is something that seems a bit messy from a grammatical POV so I'm not 100%.

No lenition on deas/treun. Gaisgeach is masculine and not slenderised, so it doesn't cause lenition itself. dhan would cause lenition, as it causes jumping lenition, but doesn't because it's blocked with dntl.

In a high register text, using the singular of ceud would be ok (cf Comhairle nan Eilean) but then we'd also expect don rather than dhan.

The slogan is that of the MacLean's... tsk tsk.

Agus càit a bheil e? Anns a' Mhanachainn, san iar-thuath air Inbhir Nis agus bha e ann a chiad turas a chaidh mise ann, 10 bliadhna air ais... Sgrìobh mi thuca aig an àm ach cha d'fhuair mi freagairt.

Oh, almost forgot... bu lapach is fine. It's one of the oddities of the copula that it occurs before noun predicates and possibly in from of adjectives, cf 's math sin, 's mòr am beud.

User avatar
GunChleoc
Rianaire
Posts: 4434
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:26 am
Language Level: Mion-chùiseach
Corrections: Please correct my grammar
Location: Dùthaich mo chridhe
Contact:

Unread postby GunChleoc » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:18 pm

akerbeltz wrote:it's blocked with dntl.

Dhìochuimhnich mi a-rithist e :balla:
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

Níall Beag
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:58 pm
Language Level: Chan eil gaidhlig agam agus cha bhi
Location: Dún Èideann, Alba
Contact:

Unread postby Níall Beag » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:26 pm

akerbeltz wrote:No lenition of Friseal. If it was an adjective, Frisealach, then yes. I *think* it ought to be Clann Friseil, based on the formation of Clann Dòmhnaill but I must admit that the formation of clan names is something that seems a bit messy from a grammatical POV so I'm not 100%.

Doesn't a double N block dental lenition...? That would make Clann Dòmhnaill irrelevant.

No lenition on deas/treun. Gaisgeach is masculine and not slenderised, so it doesn't cause lenition itself. dhan would cause lenition, as it causes jumping lenition, but doesn't because it's blocked with dntl.

Are you telling me that lenition blocking doesn't just occur across adjacent words?!?!? My head's now spinning....

User avatar
akerbeltz
Rianaire
Posts: 1729
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:26 am
Language Level: Barail am broinn baraille
Corrections: Please don't analyse my Gaelic
Location: Glaschu
Contact:

Unread postby akerbeltz » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:55 pm

Yes, Clann Dòmhnaill has blocked lenition but on the whole I find those clan names are not treated uniformly somehow. Never looked at them in a structured way I have to admit though.

And yes, jumping lenition can be blocked down the line, hence air a' chùr mhòr dubh :P

Duncan MacCall
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:01 pm
Corrections: I'm fine either way
Location: an t-Seic

Unread postby Duncan MacCall » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:12 pm

"Jumping" lenition? I've never heard that expression so far - does it mean "because the first word in a string (like noun+adjective+another adjective) was lenited the following ones get lenited too"?

User avatar
akerbeltz
Rianaire
Posts: 1729
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:26 am
Language Level: Barail am broinn baraille
Corrections: Please don't analyse my Gaelic
Location: Glaschu
Contact:

Unread postby akerbeltz » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:36 pm

It's a term I've coined when I realised most people I was teaching had never quite figured that some words cause lenition only once (what I started calling Single Lenition) and others that cause an entire string (usually of nouns and adjectives) to lenite - hence Jumping Lenition.

The fact that few grammars don't decline nouns with one adjective max doesn't help!

Single Lenition examples are:
mo chat mòr dubh
bu mhi mac na banntrach
dà chù mòr dubh


Jumping Lenition involves either a feminine noun, a slenderised masculine noun or the leniting article:
mic mhòra dhubha
cas mhòr dhubh
ris a' chùr mhòr tana gheal

faoileag
Maor
Posts: 1455
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:19 am

Unread postby faoileag » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:57 pm

I like the image of (single and) 'jumping' lenition . 8-)

What I've been calling them, more prosaically, is 'one-off' (dà, mo etc) and 'knock-on' (leniting article, feminine marker, slenderisation) lenition.

'Knock-on' for me refers to both lenition and dntl-blocking along the whole string of noun+adjectives, AND to slenderisation.

The whole field of adjective lenition is a minefield, and I have tried to explain it to myself for 'remembering' purposes, as follows.
NB: The logic/explanations are to help me, not based on anything scientific like etymology or phonology!.

I HOPE THE EXAMPLES, IF NOT THE REASONING, ARE CORRECT! If not, please correct it, akerbeltz!


1. There are cases where only one factor leads to lenition, and therefore it is fairly simple. E.g.

Plural: leis na mic mhòra dhorcha - no leniting article, no blocking -n; lenition caused by slender noun ending only.

masc. Dative: leis a' mhac mhòr dorcha - lenition caused by 'leis an' only, counteracted on dorcha by -N > dntl block.


2. In other cases there are two factors to watch out for, leniting article 'an' and leniting slenderisation, which also 'jumps'. E.g.

Masc. Sing. Genitive: airson a' mhic mhòir dhuirche - leniting article 'airson an' (a' =an), + slenderised noun which slenderises and lenites the adjectives; here the dtnl block is neutralised by the slenderisation of 'mic' (i.e. one of the two reasons for lenition is still left).


3. In the Feminine noun we have a further factor: feminine nouns lenite their adjectives, as a fem. marker, in Nom./Acc. (as well as in Dative):

Fem. Nom./Acc. a' chaileag bheag dhorcha - fem. nominative/accusative lenition of adjectives. The 'an' (+fem. nom.) lenites the noun too. Blocking of lenition of D (by 'an') offset by feminine adjective lenition, i.e. one reason still left.


4. Fem. dative also classically slenderises: leis a' chaileig bhig dhuirche. i.e. there are 3 reasons for lenition (leis an, fem. gender marker, slenderisation). D blocking offset by 2 other reasons.


BUT
5. airson na caileige bige duirche - classical fem. genitive does not lenite anything in the string DESPITE slenderisation and feminine gender. (I think of it as fem. genitive elegantly differentiating itself from masc. genitive, which DOES lenite, and which doesn't add the last -e)


6. 'Classically' means 'by the book'. You hear and see less classical constructions, caused by the so-called 'erosion' of the adjective as regards slenderisation, feminine-marker lenition etc. I am ignoring them!


REPEAT WARNING: don't take this as gospel until we hear from Mr A. :spors:

User avatar
Seonaidh
Posts: 1486
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:00 pm
Corrections: I'm fine either way
Location: Faisg air Gleann Rathais

Unread postby Seonaidh » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:36 pm

All this "slenderisation" - sounds like a diet!

User avatar
akerbeltz
Rianaire
Posts: 1729
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:26 am
Language Level: Barail am broinn baraille
Corrections: Please don't analyse my Gaelic
Location: Glaschu
Contact:

Unread postby akerbeltz » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:41 pm

LOL ok, soisgeul a th' ann a-nis, chan fhaca mise mearachd sam bith ann. Math a rinn thu! :D