Sùil air a' mhearachd

Ciamar a chanas mi.... / How do I say...
GunChleoc
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Unread post by GunChleoc » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:02 am

Cha d' fhuair mi Cailleannach anns an fhaclair. Dè a chiall?

Agus seo fear a th' agamsa:

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Na dealbhan agam

akerbeltz
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Unread post by akerbeltz » Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:46 pm

Caledonian 8-)

Sràid na Banrighinn... intinneach. Bha sin 'gam chur tro chèile a-riamh. Bhon is e Queen Street a th' ann (gun 's), nach "street of a queen" a tha seo a' ciallachadh sa Bheurla?

Deagh cheist eile: cò aig a tha fios carson a chithear na dòighean litreachaidh seo agus dè an tè as fhearr:
banrigh
banrìgh
bannrigh

Thrissel
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Unread post by Thrissel » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:43 pm

akerbeltz wrote:Deagh cheist eile: cò aig a tha fios carson a chithear na dòighean litreachaidh seo agus dè an tè as fhearr:
banrigh
banrìgh
bannrigh
Agus cha chreid mi nach fhaca mi bànrigh cuideachd... Chan eil fhios agam carson a tha cho mòran ann, ach b' fhèarr leam banrìgh, oir tha sin nas fhaisge air ban- + rìgh. Tha Cailean Marc ag ràdh "the spelling banrigh is now recommended", ach chan eil e ag ràdh carson. Rudeigin mu dheidhinn a' cheuma (a bheil an ceum air a' chiad lide, seach air an "-righ"?)?

Edited 26/7: Tha fhios gun robh mi a' ciallachadh "beum" seach "ceum". Nach mi tha gòrach :priob:
Last edited by Thrissel on Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

akerbeltz
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Unread post by akerbeltz » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:41 pm

Ok, ceithir dhiubh ma-thà, cuid le tàthan 's cuid as aonais:

ban(-)righ
ban(-)rìgh
bàn(-)righ
bannrigh


Deagh cheistean a thog thu Thrissel ach fuircheamaid gus am faigh sin beachd no dhà eile.

GunChleoc
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Unread post by GunChleoc » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:52 pm

Cha chuala mi am facal seo a-riamh is chan eil mi cinnteach, ach tha bannrigh agus bànrigh cearr gun teagamh. Cha chan mi /bawn/-rudeigin no /ba:n/-rudeigin ach /ban/-rudeigin.

Air an darna laimh, bhiodh rìgh bàn ceart gu leòr, ach cha b' e an aon rud a bhiodh seo :lol:
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Na dealbhan agam

Níall Beag
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Unread post by Níall Beag » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:21 pm

Ban-righinn then.

*Alasdair*
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Unread post by *Alasdair* » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Tha GOC ag ràdh gu bheil "Banrigh" an fhacal ceart sna laithean a-diugh.

'Son genitive faodaidh tu "Banrighe" a ràdh cuideachd a reir Angus Watson.

Níall Beag
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Unread post by Níall Beag » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:35 pm

akerbeltz wrote:Sràid na Banrighinn... intinneach. Bha sin 'gam chur tro chèile a-riamh. Bhon is e Queen Street a th' ann (gun 's), nach "street of a queen" a tha seo a' ciallachadh sa Bheurla?
I think it's just a peculiarity of street names -- we don't tend to use "of" constructions in streetnames, and articles rarely appear. When they do, the street name doesn't have any of the usual "st" "rd" "ave" name elements: eg the mews, the glebe, but take for example "Great Western Road": if we wanted to stick with normal rules of grammar, it'd be "the Great Western Road" (and of course some people do talk about it that way!). We also tend to avoid posessives before a common street name element, so the otherwise grammatically correct "The Queen's Street" is naturally reduced to "Queen St". Similar sets of otherwise-ungrammatical naming conventions appear in most European languages, but borrowing them into Celtic languages would be a bit more troublesome because while the appropriate article can be inferred by the reader from the context, an absent article in Gaelic makes the phrase explicitly indefinite.

So to cut a long story short: I think the article's appropriate here.

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Unread post by Thrissel » Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:29 pm

Níall Beag wrote:We also tend to avoid posessives before a common street name element, so the otherwise grammatically correct "The Queen's Street" is naturally reduced to "Queen St".
Not only street names either. There's this book named English or Czenglish and using possessives in such contexts, like Masaryk's Station rather than Masaryk Station is one of the things the author points out as sins against idiomacity Czech speakers tend to commit when speaking English.

akerbeltz
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Unread post by akerbeltz » Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:35 pm

Ok, beachdan gu leòr, àm an fhuasglaidh. Agus chan eil freagairt shimplidh ann idir.

'S e ro-leasachan inntinneach a th' ann am ban-/bàn. Tha fhios gun dàinig e bhon fhacal bean (/bɛn/ sa Ghàidhlig; /bʲan/ roimhe san t-Seann Ghàidhlig/Ghaeilge) no gu bheil an aon fhreumh ann co-dhiù.

Tha fhios gum bi ro-leasachain agus na h-ainmearan nan dèidh a' fàs nas dlùithe ri tìde: /dʲiː/ + cuimhnich /kɯ̃ĩnɪç/ > dìochuimhnich /diəxənɪç/ etc

Ach tha rudan neònach a' tachairt leis an ro-leasachan ban-. Tha 4 diofar dòighean ann air a dhlùthaicheas e ris an ainmear (air a' char as lugha).

1. Dlùthachadh mar is dùil
'S ciall dha sin gum fàs iad ri chèile, le call a' bhèim air an dàrna lide. Seo na faclan fillte as aosta.
banarach /banarəx/ (< b(e)an + àireach)
banais /banɪʃ/ (< b(e)an + fèis)
banaltram /baNaLdrəm/ (< b(e)an + altram)

2. Fuaimreag cuideachaidh
Nuair a bhios an -n deireannach ri connrag eile, gheibh sinn an fhuaimreag cuideachaidh gu tric. Gheibh sinn /bana/ no /bɛnɛ/ a-rèir na dual-chainnt. Uaireannan, chithear e san sgrìobhadh agus a-rèir coltais, 's ann le b c m p a thachras seo gu tric:
bana-bhuidseach
bana-chliamhainn
bana-mhorair
bana-phrionnsa

etc

ACH, agus tha seo inntinneach, thoiribh an aire dhan n làidir:
bana-bhuidseach /baNa/
bana-chliamhainn /baNa/
bana-mhorair /baNa/
bana-phrionnsa /baNa/

3) Gun atharrachadh san sgrìobhadh
Thèid ban- air beulaibh an ainmeir uaireannan gun bhuaidh air an sgrìobhadhh. Faodaidh seo tachair le fuaim sam bith, a' gabhail a-steach b c m p. Ach, mar a thachair roimhe, gheibh thu an fhuaimreag cuideachadh co-dhiù sa bhruidhinn air beulaibh connraig:
ban-chèile /baNa/
ban-iarla
ban-fhigheach

etc

Tachraidh e gum bi an dearbh fhacal ann an roinn 2. no 3. aig an aom àm.

Ach seo an fheadhainn neònach:

4. Atharrachadh ban gu bann
Ann an cuid de dh'fhaclan thèid an ro-leasachan a ràdh mar gum b' e bann- a th' anns an fhacal. Gun luaidh air an sgrìobhadh, seo dhuibh eisimpleirean an fhuaimneachaidh; uaireannan le aon bheum, uaireannan le dà bheum:
/bãũNdrəx/
/bãũNRi/
/bãũN tuəhənəx/
/bãũN o.ə/
/bãũN dʲuːxg/
/bãũN iəRLə/
/bãũN Lʲi.ɪçə/
/bãũN ɣaʃgʲəx/

Chan eil mòran de phàtran ann ach nach bi seo a' tachairt le b c m p ach glè ainneamh.

Air sgàth 's gur e bùrach cho mòr a th' ann, tha na Gàidheil air a bhith tro chèile a thaobh litreachadh nam faclan seo bho chionn fhada agus chì thu iomadh litreachadh dhen aon fhacal. Co-dhiù, nan sgrìobhamaid na faclan shuas a-rèir mar a chanar iad, gheibheamaid:
banntrach /bãũNdrəx/
bannrigh /bãũNRi/
bann-tuathanach /bãũN tuəhənəx/
bann-ogha /bãũN o.ə/
bann-diùc /bãũN dʲuːxg/
bann-iarla /bãũN iəRLə/
bann-lighiche /bãũN Lʲi.ɪçə/
bann-ghaisgeach /bãũN ɣaʃgʲəx/

Chan urrainnear a ràdh le cinnt dè an roinn anns am bi facal le ban- aig an toiseach ACH chan fhaigh thu *bàn- ach mar mhearachd ann - tha bàn- co-cheangailte ris an dath.

Ciamar is carson? Deagh cheist. Dà fhuasgladh:
1) bha /N/ làidir aig deireadh an fhacail seo bho chionn fhada no bho thùs
2) bha /n/ lag aig deireadh an fhacail seo aig an toiseach ach air dòigh air choireigin, ghabh e ri /N/ làidir ri tìde
Tha cuid de dh'fhaclan ann aig a bheil /n/ lag (banarach, banais) ach cha do lorg mi ach an dà dhiubh 's a bharrachd air sin, tha n làidir a' nochdadh san tuiseal ghinideach: banais > bainnse /bãĩ(Nʲ)ʃə/

Coma leinn an eachdraidh, ciamar a sgrìobhas sinn na faclan seo? Uel, tha an litreachadh gu tur tro chèile. Chithear dòigh eile aig gach sgrìobhadair ach nan sgrìobhamaid iad air an dòigh a chanas sin iad, gheibheamaid seo:
banna-bhuidseach
banna-chliamhainn
bann-ogha
bann-iarla
bannrigh
(aon bheum air BANNrigh)
banntrach (seo mar a sgrìobhar e gu tric co-dhiù)
banais/bainnse
etc

Adhbhar PhD do chuideigin! :P
:P
Last edited by akerbeltz on Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GunChleoc
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Unread post by GunChleoc » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:55 am

Seo is abhar gu bheil dìth cruaidh againn air ùr-fhaclair far an do chuireadh na fuaimean ris na faclan :lol:
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Seonaidh
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Unread post by Seonaidh » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:04 am

Dè mu dheidhinn "Sràid a' Cho-seòrsaich Bhoireannta"?

akerbeltz
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Unread post by akerbeltz » Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:09 pm

LOL feumaidh gu bheil facal nas snoige ann airson Queen sa Ghàidhlig.
ACH chan fhaigh thu *bàn- ach mar mhearachd ann - tha bàn- co-cheangailte ris an dath.
Dhìochuimhnich mi seo... tha fhios agam gum faic thu bàn- and àite ban(a)/bann- uaireannan. Chanainnsa gun tachair sin nuair a dh'fheuchas daoine ri /bãũN/ a sgrìobhadh ach fo mhì chinnt mar a nì iad sin. Gheibh thu sin le grannda/grànda cuideachd.

Tha fhios agam na tha GOC a' moladh ach cha leugh mi na riaghailtean aca ach nuair a bhios beagan spòrs a dhìth orm. Sin agus Kelvin and Hobbes...

akerbeltz
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Unread post by akerbeltz » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:36 am

Ok, fhad 's a tha an t-aran darach san àmhainn, seo dealbh ùr is dùlan ùr dhuibh:

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AlasdairBochd
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Unread post by AlasdairBochd » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:27 am

Stòr a' Chidhe.
Bùth Snàith Draoidheachd.
Eadhon anns a' Bheurla, dè th' ann ? Magic thread ? :chafhios:

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