Colbh AP Chaimbeil WHFP 29.5.09

Na tha a' tachairt ann an saoghal na Gàidhlig agus na pàipearan-naidheachd / What's happening in the Gaelic world and the newspapers
AlasdairBochd
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Unread post by AlasdairBochd » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:18 am

a Thearlaich,
Bha thu dà mhionaid air mo bheul. :)
Tha thu ceart. Thachras an aon rud ann a sheo (Astràilia). Ach tha aon rud eadar-dhealaichte le sin agus Gàidhlig ann an Alba. Ann a sheo, bhios na cloinne mar sin a dol dhan a sgoiltean agus cluinneas iad Beurla a-mhàin fad an latha. Mar eiseimpleir, tha blas trom Albanach aig m'athair, ach blas trom Astràilianach agam fhìn. Ionnsaich cloinne cuid as motha na chànain aca am measg na chairdean aca. Gu dearbha fhèin, tha faclan agam nach do ionnsaich mi às mo phàrantan ! :naire:



Níall Beag
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Unread post by Níall Beag » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:15 pm

Tearlach61 wrote:I have a co-worker. Her father moved to the U.S. in his twenties. He has only ever spoken to his children in English. It is a very common decision made by immigrants here in the U.S.: in this house we speak English. Why can't that work the other way in favor of Gaelic?
You yourself said it:
You know, over the years, there's been a lot of Gaelic parents who speak to their children in a non-native language i.e. English!
Because this is a strategy for abandoning languages, it works when you drop one language in favour of the locally dominant language. As Alasdair said:
AlasdairBochd wrote:Ann a sheo, bhios na cloinne mar sin a dol dhan a sgoiltean agus cluinneas iad Beurla a-mhàin fad an latha. Mar eiseimpleir, tha blas trom Albanach aig m'athair, ach blas trom Astràilianach agam fhìn. Ionnsaich cloinne cuid as motha na chànain aca am measg na chairdean aca. Gu dearbha fhèin, tha faclan agam nach do ionnsaich mi às mo phàrantan ! :naire:
Your coworker's parent's "English at home" policy may actually be irrelevant when it comes down to it -- perhaps the majority of your friend's childhood learning of English occurred in the community. In fact, there's an argument that English-at-home among immigrants actually is an impediment to the natural acquisition of English -- the parent's flaws interfere with the natural English of the community. The English-at-home policy robbed your coworker of her family tongue -- how can she visit the relatives back in whatever "old country" her folks were from? -- just as the English-as-the-language-of-progress is robbing the children of Gaels of their local language.

I believe, like many, that regardless of the local language, the mother should always speak her mother tongue -- "mother's tongue is mother's milk", as Gandhi said.
Tearlach61 wrote:My point and Fionnlagh's is there are people, learners, who are fully capable of speaking to their children in Gaelic who aren't. We're not talking about those who are not capable and aren't.
I've not met them -- and my experience of English speakers abroad says that it's a vanishing minority of statistical insignificance. What I'm saying is that the number of learners capable of doing it is not enough to "save" the language, but the number of well-intentioned learners not capable of doing it is more than enough to do irreperable damage to the language.

I've heard the following from a few parents:
"Och, I make mistakes, but that's OK, as children are better at picking up languages than adults."
There seems to be some misapprehension that this means that children don't pick up their parents' mistakes. That's nonsense: there's nothing to tell the child that these are mistakes as there is no universal "truth" in language that can be independently discovered -- a language is whatever you hear around you, and it doesn't matter how good you are at learning: if you hear it wrong, you'll learn it wrong.

Pushing non-native parents to speak to their children in Gaelic just strikes me as an extremely dangerous thing to do. Even more dangerous is encouraging new parents without Gaelic to learn the language "with" their children. Selling this by pointing out the benefits of bilingualism is totally disengenuous, as most studies of bi/multilingualism have focused on naturally bilingual environments with fluent models of the languages involved. Children brought up in non-fluent models suffer from problems in expression. This is documented the word over, yet many parents the world over ignore their native tongue and try to teach their kids English (or some other dominant tongue) that they themselves haven't mastered. In attempting to give their kids an advantage, they leave them disadvantaged: unable to get jobs locally due to a lack of the local language and unable to get jobs elsewhere because of their heavily accented and idiomatically and grammatically incorrect English.

Tearlach61
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Unread post by Tearlach61 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:40 pm

Alasdair,

beagan ceartachadh mura a chuir sin dradh ort.

"Thachras an aon rud ann a sheo " Aig fìor thoiseach an t-seantans, chan e an seadh 'thachras' ach 'tachraidh' a chleachdas tu. Tha an dearbh rud fìor le 'Ann an sheo, bhios na cloinne...'

Rud eile: tha 'na cloinne' san tuiseal gineatach (genitive case). Saoilidh mi gur e "a' chlann" a tha thu a' ciallachadh. Cuimhnich gu bheil clann iolra mar tha. Saoilidh gur e seo a bha fa-near dhut.

Saoilidh mi aig a' cheann thall, gur e seo deasbaid feallsanachd a th' againn. An atharraich mic an duine dad sam bith san t-saoghal neo an ann aig mhic an duine ach atharrachadhean ri fulang?

Tha mise dhen bheachd gu bheil torr mòr a ghabhas dheanamh, ri taobh suidheachadh na Gàidhlig neo dad sam bith eile.

Cuiridh mi geall, a rud a bha Fionnlagh ag iarraidh, 's e molaidhean dhan t-sligh adhart 's chan e leisgeulan mar nach atharraich cùisean a chaoidh.

akerbeltz
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Unread post by akerbeltz » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:48 pm

'S mòr an iongnadh a tha na h-àireamhan sin a' cur orm a bhios Fionnlagh a' sgaoileadh an-siud 's an-seo, àireamhan gun iomradh air tùs...

Tha mi air an trèan an-dràsta agus chan urrainn dhomh na h-àireamhan ceart a thoirt dhuibh, tha gràn na fìrinne aig Fionnlagh ach chan e lof iomlan. Ni ad rannsachadh mòr ann an Dùthaich nam Basgach air àireamhan is cleachadh a' chànain gu cunbhalach agus tha e fìor gu bheil tar-chur cànain nas lugha am measg an fheadhainn a dh'ionnsaich iad ach chan eil e idir cho beag 's a bha e a' cur 'nur sùilean. Agus ged nach do rinn iad rannsachadh ceart air a' chùis gu ruige seo, tha coltas gu bheil seo co-cheagailte gu ìre ri rèimean cainnte (na registers) 's iad air Basgais fhoirmeil a thogail san sgoil ach chan eil seo a cheart cho freagarrach airson clann a thogail. Chan e nach urrainn dhan luchd-ionnsachaidh sin a dhèanamh no nach eil iad deònach sin a dhèanamh ach uaireannan, cha dèan miann 'na aonar a' chùis.

Agus a' phuing eile - that daoine ann aig a bheil rud ris an canar "comas cha mhòr mar neach-bruidhinn tùsail" ("near-native ability"). Tha e fìos nach eil iad cho pailt ach tha sin a' crochadh gu mòr ri amasan nan daoine. Mar eisimpleir, ma thèid thu gu opara, can Cearcall na Fàinne ann an Dùn Eìdeann agus ma dh'èisteas tu ris na seinneadairean a' seinn sa Ghearmailtis, cha chluinn thu air an guth nach deach an togail leis a' chànan. Agus chan e gu bheil comas ionnsachaidh gun a leithid eile annta no cluasan as fhearr san t-saoghal. Tha 2 rud eadar-dhealaichte bho luchd-ionnsachaidh àbhaisteach: 1) miann - tha iad ag amas air fìor dheagh fhuaimneachadh air sgàth 's gum feum iad seinn air beulaibh an luchd-èisteachd - agus feumaidh iad seinn gu math 2) trèanadh - gheibh iad uile trèanadh anns a' chànan a tha iad a' dol a sheinn ann. Ge be Ruisis, Gearmailtis no Eadailtis a th' ann.

Gabhaidh a dhèanamh gun teagamh sam bith ach mar is trice 1) chan dèid fuaimneachadh a theasgag gu math ann an Alba 2) mus mìnich thu dhaibh carson a tha seo dona, tha luchd-tòiseachaidh glè dhèidheil air "cabadaich an-diugh agus fuaimneachadh a-màireach". Agus chan urrainn dhut sin a dhèanamh le cànan mar a' Ghàidhlig aig a bheil siostam fòn-eòlach cho eadar-dhealaichte... uel, chan urrainn gun pheanasachadh san àm ri teachd.

Am Mìcheal Eile

Tearlach61
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Unread post by Tearlach61 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:32 pm

"...tha luchd-tòiseachaidh glè dhèidheil air "cabadaich an-diugh agus fuaimneachadh a-màireach". Agus chan urrainn dhut sin a dhèanamh le cànan mar a' Ghàidhlig aig a bheil siostam fòn-eòlach cho eadar-dhealaichte..."

Tha seo cho fìor sa ghabhas. 'Chunnaic mi sin an seo ann an Juneau. Cha do theagaisg mi Gàidhlig am bliadhna-sa, ach ma theagas an ath-bhliadhna tha mi airson cuideam a bharrachadh a chur air fuaimneachadh.

Tha mi a' deanamh deuchain bheag an-dràsda. Tha mi a' cur ri chèile bhideo airson na co-fharpaise a tha filmg a' cur air dòigh. Tha feum agam air clasaichean aig a bheil Gàidhlig ach chan eil iad agam. Ach tha daoine gu leòr agam a tha deònach loighnichean Gàidhlig ionnsachadh. An deuchainn 's e dè seorsa fuaimncheadh a gheibheas mi asta?

AlasdairBochd
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Unread post by AlasdairBochd » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:07 pm

Chan eil dragh sam bi orm, a Thearlaich. Taing airson a cheartachadh.

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