The Source of the River Tay

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Níall Beag
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The Source of the River Tay

Unread post by Níall Beag » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:24 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-t ... l-12243508
So they say they've found the source of the River Tay.

Is this a valid thing to be claiming?

Surely a Gaelic-named river starts with a loch of the same name. So the source of the Tay is Loch Tay. What they've found is that a particular burn, not a river, supplies more to Loch Tay than any of the other burns in the area?

(On a related note, I've always wondered if the "abhainn dubh" (the Forth) isn't what is normally claimed -- "the black river" because of peat in the water -- but rather the "the obscure river" because it has no loch on it and just sort of wandered out of the biggest bog south of Rannoch Moor.)



Seonaidh
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Re: The Source of the River Tay

Unread post by Seonaidh » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:38 pm

(a) What leads you to suppose that the name "Tay" (Tatha) derives from Gaelic at all?
(b) Without the Dochart etc., would the Tay still be Scotland's longest river? Sin e, dìreach bho Loch Tatha chun na mara.
(c) An ann cudromach a tha seo co-dhiù?

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Uisge Tatha agus Allt a' Bhonnaich

Unread post by An Gobaire2 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:48 am

À Fàclair Iain Mac an Tàilleir, mu dheidhinn Tatha.
This may be from the same Indo-European root meaning “flow as Tain. The might of the river is mentoned in the saying, Tatha mhór nan tonn, bheir i sgrìob lom air Peairt, “Great Tay of the waves will cut a swathe through Perth”.
On a different topic:

I'm wondering about the authenticity of the explanation of the name Bannockburn. This is what Iain Mac an Tàilleir says:

“The bannock stream”. The Gaelic name has taken the bannock of the English form to mean “scone”, although the origin may be different. The Battle of Bannockburn is Blàr Allt a’ Bhonnaich in Gaelic.

However, in this area of Scotland, Gaelic was around before English, and the word bannock comes from the Gaelic "bonnach"- not the other way round - so it strikes me as a bit of a shaky explanation for the name. T

So, anyway, the other day I saw Bannockburn rendered as "An t-Allt Beannachd" or an "An t-Allt Beannaichte" (The blessed burn), and this is either a vision, or I did see it, but I can't recall the source. So, I am beginning to think that Bannockburn is actually a mutated form of Beannachd" or "Beannaichte" for blessed, rather than having anything to do with "bannocks" the food.

The Gaelic "Allt a' Bhonnaich" probably came about as a re-rendering of the English which originally came from Beannachd or Beannaichte. This is my theory anyway.

Níall Beag
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Re: The Source of the River Tay

Unread post by Níall Beag » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:17 am

Seonaidh wrote:(a) What leads you to suppose that the name "Tay" (Tatha) derives from Gaelic at all?
The Scots form almost definitely came via Gaelic, regardless of it's probable Pictish origins.
(c) An ann cudromach a tha seo co-dhiù?
Is anything we talk about here really that important?

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Re: Uisge Tatha agus Allt a' Bhonnaich

Unread post by Níall Beag » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:19 am

An Gobaire2 wrote:So, anyway, the other day I saw Bannockburn rendered as "An t-Allt Beannachd" or an "An t-Allt Beannaichte" (The blessed burn), and this is either a vision, or I did see it, but I can't recall the source. So, I am beginning to think that Bannockburn is actually a mutated form of Beannachd" or "Beannaichte" for blessed, rather than having anything to do with "bannocks" the food.
Certainly seems a far more likely name. Intinneach gu dearbh.

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Re: The Source of the River Tay

Unread post by Thrissel » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:41 pm

Seonaidh wrote:(c) An ann cudromach a tha seo co-dhiù?
Gu h-inntinneach, thachair mi air bloigh le Tay Western Catchments Partnership fhèin agus tha e coltach nach do smuain a' BhBC gun robh an cuspair cudromach a bharrachd:
http://taywesterncatchments.blogspot.co ... f-tay.html

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