Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

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Lewis91
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Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by Lewis91 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:54 pm

Dè is coireach nach bi tòrr dhaoine (aig a bheil a' Ghàidhlig bho thùs) a' cleachdadh an cànan còmhla ri chèile? Chan urra' dhomh thuigsinn idir, feumaidh gu bheil e nas fhasa dhaibh a bhith a' bruidhinn sa chànan aca fhèin nach eil? Agus na inns dhomh nach eil seo cumanta, oir tha fhios a'm nach e siud an fhìrinn idir.

Aig amannan bidh mi a' faighneach dhomh fhèin dè is coireach gu bheil mi ag ionnsachadh na Gàidhlig...



*Alasdair*
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Re: Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by *Alasdair* » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:22 am

Tha mi a' faighneachd dhomh fhìn an aon cheist aig àmannan. Ged is toigh leam a' Ghaidhlig, carson a tha mi cho deònach an cànan ionnsachadh nuair nach eil na fileantaich fiù 's air am bodraigeadh leatha?

Ged nach eil mi-fhìn a' cleachdadh na Gàidhlig cho tric 's a bu chòir dhomh, chan eil mi ga diùltadh idir. Tha i agams' agus tha mi moiteil aisde - tha mi air a bhith ga h-ionnsachadh fad bliadhnaichean, cha stadaidh mi le bhith ga cleachdadh a-nis!

Bha Finlay MacLeoid cuideachd a' bruidhinn air am puing seo a-nochd air a dhuilleag Facebook. 'S e na inbhich òga a tha is coireach, eadar na h-aoisean de 20 is 35, nam bheachd-sa. Tha iad a' gluasad air falbh bhon taighe agus a' faighinn beatha ùr, snasail Bheurla air an Tìr Mhòr - chan feum iad a bhith a' bruidhinn na Gàidhlig, mar sin tha iad ga cur gus aon taobh agus ga dìochuimhneachadh. Ach, air an dàra làmh, nuair a tha na daoine seo a' fàs nas aosd' bidh iad a' cleachdadh na Gàidhlig a-rithist air sgàth seòrsa de choire aca ma deidhinn.

Chan eil mi a' smaoineachadh gu bheil seo a' tachairt cho tric 's a tha e ann an Alba na tha e le cànain eile.

Gordon Wells
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Re: Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by Gordon Wells » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:25 pm

Tuigidh mi carson a bhiodh gach neach-ionnsachaidh na Gàidhlig ag iarraidh gach cothrom airson a bruidhinn a chleachdadh. (’S ann mar sin a dh’fhàsas sinn nas fheàrr nar cànan ùr.) Ach fuirichibh, carson a bhiodh sin fìor airson gach fileantach cuideachd?

Ma tha dà chànan agad gu fileanta, tha roghainn agad. Dh’fhaodadh tu faighneachd carson a dh’iarradh daoine le Gàidhlig agus Beurla dìreach Gàidhlig a-mhàin a chleachdadh nuair a tha iad a’ bruidhinn ri chèile. Agus gu tric, mar a chì mise an gnothach, ’s e measgachadh a tha a’ dol co-dhìu. Rud nach toil le cuid, ’s dòcha, ach chan e dìreach na Gàidheil a-mhàin a bhios ga dhèanamh:

http://gordonwellsuist.wordpress.com/20 ... s-amitabh/

Rud gu math nàdarra, ma tha dà chànan agad. Agus tha sinn uile ag aontachadh gu bheil dà-chànanachas math dhut, nach eil?

Lewis91
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Re: Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by Lewis91 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:11 pm

A Ghordon, chan e siud am puing a bh'agam idir, tha mi tuigsinn gum bi fileantaich ag atharachadh bho Beurla gu Gàidhlig nuair a tha iad a' bruidhinn, anns an aon sheantans aig amannan, 's e sin code-switching nach e? Agus tha mi den bheachd nach eil sian sam bith ceàrr air sin, mar a thuirt thu fhéin, 's e rud gu math nàdarra a th'ann.

I feel as though you've read my comment , and then decided that I've written something totally different than to what is before you on the screen.
I didn't mention anything about learners, but now that you bring it up, would it really kill native speakers to speak Gaelic when the conversation is initiated in Gaelic.
It's not like they need to practice their English!

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Re: Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by *Alasdair* » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:12 pm

Gordon Wells wrote:Tuigidh mi carson a bhiodh gach neach-ionnsachaidh na Gàidhlig ag iarraidh gach cothrom airson a bruidhinn a chleachdadh. (’S ann mar sin a dh’fhàsas sinn nas fheàrr nar cànan ùr.) Ach fuirichibh, carson a bhiodh sin fìor airson gach fileantach cuideachd?

Ma tha dà chànan agad gu fileanta, tha roghainn agad. Dh’fhaodadh tu faighneachd carson a dh’iarradh daoine le Gàidhlig agus Beurla dìreach Gàidhlig a-mhàin a chleachdadh nuair a tha iad a’ bruidhinn ri chèile. Agus gu tric, mar a chì mise an gnothach, ’s e measgachadh a tha a’ dol co-dhìu. Rud nach toil le cuid, ’s dòcha, ach chan e dìreach na Gàidheil a-mhàin a bhios ga dhèanamh:

http://gordonwellsuist.wordpress.com/20 ... s-amitabh/

Rud gu math nàdarra, ma tha dà chànan agad. Agus tha sinn uile ag aontachadh gu bheil dà-chànanachas math dhut, nach eil?
A Ghordain, chan e sin a bha sinn a' ciallachadh. Tha fhios 'am gu bheil roghainn ann [chan eil càil ceàrr air a sin], agus gu bheil na luchd-fileantaich a' measgachadh na Gàidhlig 's a' Bheurla, ach bha sinn a' bruidhinn air na feadhainn a tha a' diùltadh an cànan [agus an culture, gu ìre] aca fhèin uile gu lèir. Na can rium nach eil an leithid de dhaoine ann air sgàth 's gu bheil mi-fhìn eòlach air feadhainn.

Chan eil mi a' tuigsinn carson a bhiodh sibh a' dèanamh às dha ur Gàidhlig, agus ag ràdh nach urrainn dhuibh ga bruidhinn, nuair a tha an comas sin agaibh? Gu h-àraid sna làithean-sa, nuair a tha an cànan a' fàs gu mòr.

A bharrachd air seo, tha tòrr luchd-fileantaich ann a tha gu tur an-aghaidh daoine ag ionnsachadh na Gàidhlig. 'S dòcha gun robh i "gun fheum" nuair a bha iad gu math òg, ach a-nis tha cothroman air leth math ann... 'S cinnteach gu bheil iad a' mothachadh seo?

Gordon Wells
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Re: Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by Gordon Wells » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:37 am

Tha mi duilich, a chàirdean, mura h-eil mi air ur tuigsinn gu ceart. Lewis91, nach tuirt sibh fhèin gu bheil sibh ag ionnsachadh na Gàidhlig, ach uaireannan a’ faighneachd dhuibh fhèin carson? Bha mi a’ smaoineachadh gun robh an dithis agaibh ag ràdh nach robh sibh a’ tuigsinn carson a bhios cuid de dhaoine aig a bheil deagh Ghàidhlig uaireannan a’ bruidhinn a’ chànain eile a th’ aca ri chèile. Bha mi a’ feuchainn ri sin a mhìneachadh cho math agus a b’ urrainn dhomh a rèir an tuigse agam fhèin. Ma tha sibh eòlach air a h-uile dad mar sin mar-thà, gabhaibh mo leisgeul.

Ach ma tha sibh a-mach air daoine a tha a’ diùltadh Gàidhlig a bhruidhinn idir ged a tha i aca, ’s e ceist eile a tha sin, gun teagamh. Ag innse na fìrinn chan eil mi eòlach air daoine mar sineach, ach creidsidh mi gu bheil iad ann. Mar sin cha chan mi gu bheil freagairt agam dhan cheist sin, ach gur dòcha gur e misneachd cnag na cùise a-rithist. ’S e mearachd a bhiodh ann, nam bheachdsa, a bhith a’ smaoineachadh gu bheil dìth-mhisneachd na thrioblaid dhan luchd-ionnsachaidh a-mhàin. Tha tòrr stigmas co-cheangailte ris a’ Ghàidhlig fhathast. Ann an dòigh tha an luchd-ionnsachaidh air faighinn seachad orra mar-thà – no cha bhiodh iad airson an cànan ionnsachadh co-dhiù. Ach chan eil sin fìor airson a h-uile duine.

Agus, Lewis91, a’ tionndadh dhan Bheurla, I think a lot of “native speakers” are very pleased to hear Gaelic from learners and willing to engage them in conversation to the extent that they feel comfortable. My one plea is that patience and understanding is exercised on both sides. As a language teacher myself I have, over time, developed strategies for adapting my spoken output to a level which I think my learners are ready for at the stage they’re at at the time. But it took me years to develop those skills. It’s not necessarily something you can just turn on and off at the drop of a hat. And let’s face it, it can be embarrassing if you don’t get it right. The temptation to use English in order to avoid that danger seems pretty understandable to me.

Or maybe there’s a simpler explanation still. You’ve come across some dorks – which would be a shame, but I suppose, statistically, it’s got to happen to someone. No reason why English should have a monopoly of them.

Níall Beag
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Re: Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by Níall Beag » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:23 am

Lewis91 wrote:now that you bring it up, would it really kill native speakers to speak Gaelic when the conversation is initiated in Gaelic.
It's not like they need to practice their English!
They're trying to be polite.
Your reaction doesn't seem to afford them the same courtesy.

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Re: Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by *Alasdair* » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:45 pm

Níall Beag wrote:
Lewis91 wrote:now that you bring it up, would it really kill native speakers to speak Gaelic when the conversation is initiated in Gaelic.
It's not like they need to practice their English!
They're trying to be polite.
Your reaction doesn't seem to afford them the same courtesy.
"A' feuchainn ri bhith modhail"?

Chan eil càil sam bith modhail ann a bhith a' fregairt ann an cànan eile nuair a tha daoine a' feuchainn an dicheall gus cànan eile a bhruidhinn. Nuair a bha mis' anns an Eilean Sgitheanach thachair mi ri daoine, aig an robh fìor dheagh Ghàidhlig, a bha gu math mì-chuideachail a thaobh a' leasachadh mo chuid Ghàidhlig [no an cuid Ghàidhlig aig duine sam bidh really]. Cha bhiodh iad a' brudihinn rium sa Ghàidhlig air sgàth gur e luchd-ionnsachaidh a bh' annam agus bha Beurla "nas fheàrr" dhomh.

Maybe it's because they are old and finicky, no 's dòcha gu bheil seòra hung up aca a thaobh na Gàidhlig, ach tha e gu math mì-mhisneachail dha luchd-ionnsachaidh.

Thrissel
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Re: Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by Thrissel » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:12 pm

Werner Lansburgh writes in Dear Doosie about learners of English complaining native speakers never correct their mistakes, and argues that it's quite natural: the primary goal of communication being mutual understanding, they either do understand => the goal has been achieved => they see no reason for corrections; or they don't understand, thus don't know what/how to correct. Similarly, it seems natural that when a Gaelic native sees you struggling with Gaelic he switches to English to make it easier to achieve mutual understanding for both of you, even if it was you who began in Gaelic, because that is the primary goal for them, not your studies. You have every right to ask them to stick to Gaelic for your sake; they have every right to decline.

As regards Gaelic natives talking to Gaelic natives in English, from what I can remember from school about the 18th century struggle to keep Czech language alive, the Czech revival has long been under way while there yet remained a number of native Czech speakers who made a point of only using German: because they thought it put them higher on the social scale or at least made them appear so, because they thought it better for their careers to be constantly improving their fluency in German (and saw no profit in maintaining their fluency in Czech), because they lacked appropriate Czech vocabulary for some more modern concepts and so on. I don't advocate their views, I just say it wouldn't surprise me if some Gaelic speakers were doing the same.

Lewis91
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Re: Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by Lewis91 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:44 pm

Níall Beag wrote:
Lewis91 wrote:now that you bring it up, would it really kill native speakers to speak Gaelic when the conversation is initiated in Gaelic.
It's not like they need to practice their English!
They're trying to be polite.
Your reaction doesn't seem to afford them the same courtesy.
In what way exactly is that trying to be polite? I'm trying my hardest to use a language which isn't my mother tongue, and they turn round to me and speak in nothing but English.
I don't get overly disheartened with it at the time, I continue speaking Gaelic to them, but I very much view this complete disregard for the effort I am making as extremely impolite.

Once again my dispute is not with the use of Gaelic and English simultaneously, if I don't know how to express something in Gaelic, I'll just say it in English, otherwise the conversation would land up being somewhat stilted and wouldnae really flow.

A Ghordon, tha mi tuigsinn na tha thu ag ràdh mu na stigmas co-cheangalte ris a' Ghàidhlig, bha cailleach air a bheil mi eòlach , ag innse dhomh mun deidhinn, agus gu robh seòrsa inferiority complex aig tòrr dhaoine a thaobh na Gàidhlig.

AlasdairBochd
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Re: Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by AlasdairBochd » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:23 pm

Be reasonable. Unless your pronunciation is very good, a native speaker unused to learners won't be able to understand you at all, and will immediately switch to English. I've had the same experience from the other side with South East Asian learners of English, but unfortunately I can't switch to Vietnamese or Lao. Until good pronunciation is achieved it's very difficult to understand them even when you realise that they are speaking fairly good grammatical English. You'll get away with poor grammar but not poor pronunciation.
I've found native speakers (the few that I know) generally helpful if you ask for help first.

Níall Beag
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Re: Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by Níall Beag » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:45 pm

Lewis91 wrote:In what way exactly is that trying to be polite?
In some countries it's impolite to finish a plate of food. In some countries it's impolite not to.
In some countries it's impolite to give a friend's wife a kiss on the cheek. In some countries it's impolite not to.

You'll never succeed at learning a language if you aren't open to cultural differences.

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Re: Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by GunChleoc » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:07 pm

Saoilidh mi gur e aon de na trioblaidean nuair nach eil daoine fhèin air cànan cèin ionnsachadh gu ìre, chan eil iad a' tuigsinn dè na duilgheadasan a th' agad agus dè tha a dhìth ort. B' urrainn dhut faighneachd ann an dòigh modhail an dèan iad oidhirp air do shon agus innse dhaibh dè tha thu ag iarraidh buapa.

'S e an trioblaid a th' againn mar luchd-ionnsachaidh gu bheil a' Bheurla aig a h-uile duine.
Oileanach chànan chuthachail
Na dealbhan agam

Lewis91
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Re: Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by Lewis91 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:56 pm

Níall Beag wrote:
Lewis91 wrote:In what way exactly is that trying to be polite?
In some countries it's impolite to finish a plate of food. In some countries it's impolite not to.
In some countries it's impolite to give a friend's wife a kiss on the cheek. In some countries it's impolite not to.

You'll never succeed at learning a language if you aren't open to cultural differences.
Cultural differences? Chan e dùthach eile th'ann am Peairt.
Cha do mhothaich mi diofar sam bith eadar na seann dhaoine nam theaghlach fhéin agus a' chailleach à Ratharsair is aithne dhomh m.e.
Tha i dà-chànanach, 's e sin an diofar. [Feumaidh mi ràdh gu bheil ise air mo chuideachdadh gu mòr leis a' Ghàidhlig]

Uill seadh, AlasdairBochd, chan eil mo bhlas cho math ri blas fileantachd, agus cha bhi e a chaoidh, o chionns nach e fileantachd a th'annam. 'S urrainn dha daoine mo thuigsinn, agus 's e sin an rud as cudromaiche.

*Alasdair*
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Re: Daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs

Unread post by *Alasdair* » Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:51 pm

Níall Beag wrote:
Lewis91 wrote:In what way exactly is that trying to be polite?
In some countries it's impolite to finish a plate of food. In some countries it's impolite not to.
In some countries it's impolite to give a friend's wife a kiss on the cheek. In some countries it's impolite not to.

You'll never succeed at learning a language if you aren't open to cultural differences.
Ach, channainn nach robh cultar diofraichte aig a' mhòr-chuid de luchd-labhairt na Gàidhlig - tha iad uile nan Albannaich, mar sin tha an aon chultar ann. chan eil "diofaran cultarach" ann le luchd-labhairt na Gàidhlig, 's e mì-mhodh a tha is coireach.

To me, it just seems that the rule of, "It's rude to speak Gaelic in the presence of English speakers" still reigns prominently. However even when you do try and speak Gaelic to another Gaelic speaker alone it's still not permittable and you meet this wall of resistance and rudeness. As such, when can you actually use your Gaelic? It's frowned upon in general and the fileantaich aren't interested if you are "nad luchd-ionnsachaidh".

I have never understood why Gaelic speakers cannot get over this stigma they seem to have kept alive for the last 50 years. Other nations have gotten over theirs and now seem to fully embrace their minority languages and respective cultures, if applicable, yet in Scotland we seem stuck in the past. Tha cùs smaoineachaidhean mar "Ach, 's dòcha bidh daoine eile a' fàs feargach leinn no a' cur dragh oirnn" fhathast ann.

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