LearnGaelic

Goireasan ionnsachaidh, ceanglaichean feumail is mar sin / Gaelic learning resources, useful links etc.
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GunChleoc
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LearnGaelic

Unread postby GunChleoc » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:58 am

http://www.learngaelic.net/

Aon àite air an eadar-lìon airson a h-uile duine le ùidh ann a bhith ag ionnsachadh Gàidhlig na h-Alba. Ge bith dè an aois a tha thu, no dè an t-eòlas a tha agad, tha cuideachadh dìreach cliog air falbh.

A one-stop shop for anyone and everyone interested in learning Scottish Gaelic. Whatever stage you are at, and whatever age you are, all the help you need is just a click away.


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Re: LearnGaelic

Unread postby CelticSpice » Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:16 pm

Glè mhath! Mòran taing, GunChleoc!

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Re: LearnGaelic

Unread postby faoileag » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:24 pm

While I welcome the idea, it's not exactly the one-stop shop it claims to be, as so many available resources and also relevant courses are not on here or even linked to. (Maybe - I hope - that's just 'so far.')

Its course list, despite sorting tool, is unwieldy to use.

I think it's basically going to show stuff that's sponsored or linked to the sponsors, not any 'competition', and is entirely Scotland-based, so not actually of as much use aas regards courses to many North Americans, for example, who would be better off with links to course-providers in Cape Breton or Vancouver etc in Canada, or to events run by the American An Commun Gàidhealach. Ditto Australia / NZ.

I can't email them (or CLÌ) about this, as the email link is not active on my pc (I refuse to use Outlook). If anyone has a 'real' email address for them, I'd be grateful if you could post it.

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Re: LearnGaelic

Unread postby Thrissel » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:18 am

faoileag wrote:I can't email them (or CLÌ) about this, as the email link is not active on my pc (I refuse to use Outlook). If anyone has a 'real' email address for them, I'd be grateful if you could post it.


Opera opened the link for me as
mairi@learngaelic.net

There's also an article about the site in autumn's Cothrom in which Robyn Beaton, CIì's "full-time officer for learngaelic.net" gives the address admin@cli.or.uk and phone number 01463 226841.

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Re: LearnGaelic

Unread postby akerbeltz » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:31 pm

The main reason the list of courses if incomplete, bizarrely, is that many course providers are oddly secretive about what courses they offer. CLI approached just about everyone under the sun they could think of but got far fewer responses than we know there are courses.

The hope is that once the tool is out there and it's seen to be useful, rather than "threatening" the courses provided (I know it's not rational) then more will provide info so the map becomes more complete.

Either way, the tool will always depend on community input about courses which are going on as CLI can't be expected to detect the presence of a course by reading the dregs in the cafetiere ;)

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Re: LearnGaelic

Unread postby Gràisg » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:25 am

Maybe a few people are put off by CLI's claim to be "the 21st century voice of Gaelic learners"
They are a voice yes and a very big and often effective one but there are other voices too. And then there are some individuals that just like to work outside of any form of authority.

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Re: LearnGaelic

Unread postby GunChleoc » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:15 am

Gràisg wrote:And then there are some individuals that just like to work outside of any form of authority.

Tha sin fìor ach dè an diofar nam biodh iad air an làrach ach gum biodh iad nas fhasa ri lorg don luchd-ionnsachaidh? :?
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Re: LearnGaelic

Unread postby akerbeltz » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:37 pm

They are a voice yes and a very big and often effective one but there are other voices too. And then there are some individuals that just like to work outside of any form of authority.


Oh seriously... you buy stuff every day that makes outrageous claims - when was the last time your car actually came with some scantily clad (fe)male who seduced you because you bought manufacturer X? Why should Gaelic organisations be any different? And as far as I know, CLI is the only organisation that specifically aims at Gaelic learners on a wider scale.

Sometimes I get the feeling that folk out there actually want Gaelic organisations to fail so they can moan. Sorry if I'm ranting a bit but how is CLI supposed to magically conjur up a complete list from nowhere? Starting with likely candidates (colleges, Ùlpan, councils etc) is an effective way to start. NOWHERE on that map does it claim to list absolutely every last course held at the back of a teashop in Col Uarach on alternate Sundays.

I'd like to see someone else do better...

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Re: LearnGaelic

Unread postby Gràisg » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:52 pm

when was the last time your car actually came with some scantily clad (fe)male who seduced you because you bought manufacturer X?


Does something have to be an organisation to create a voice? And I don't have a car :) Nobody every delivered my bicycle the way you describe too but anyway "A 21st century voice of Gaelic learners" would sound better to me. "The" just seems to claim the whole playing field. What I mean is isn't this place and others like it a sort of voice of Gaelic learners? More chaotic perhaps than a top-down organisation but it certainly attracts a stream of comment from learners, the patchwork quilt of all the input perhaps giving a flavour to a voice? The same with the like of this too perhaps
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=5 ... 831&v=wall

If Cli is fine for you then pay your sub (if you can afford it). I used to be a member but began to feel that its services although valuable werent' too relvant to me and I could always see the latest copy of Cothrom in the library. If I had unlimited funds I would probably take out a subscription again just to give them a bit of cash.
I must agree that regardless of your opinion of Cli it doesn't make sense for anyone running classes not to submit a few details. Another thing I find interesting is how do you quantify the success or failure of a gaelic group, especially Cli?

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Re: LearnGaelic

Unread postby faoileag » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:43 pm

I most certainly don't want any Gaelic organisation to fail just so I can moan about it, or for any other reason. The more help available for pro-Gaelic-minded people, the better. This is a good-looking site with many useful features :D . But it has to be accurately labelled, or clear on its home-page about its current range (including reasons if relevant).

I am just always wary of promising to be more than you can be (myGaelic.com is another one), and if that is - in this case - because there are other sections to come regarding (for example) resources for non-Scottish learners, it would be helpful and only sensible to have that mentioned right away on the home page.

I know Clì is a Scottish-funded organisation, so can't perhaps put too much into publicising what's available in other geographical areas, but the the description should then echo this - 'A one-stop-shop for Scottish learners of Gaelic' or something.

One danger I see is that the description ('a one-stop shop', no mention of Scotland) makes non-Scottish learners feel excluded when they find only Scottish courses and references, and that is a very, very dangerous thing, given the admirable work that is going on for the Gaelic cause in other places, especially Cape Breton, and the relatively large numbers involved world-wide. Even the arch-Conservative Mod is recognising non-Scots across the board this year. LearnGaelic should do the same. The Gaelic world has to get far, far away from any faint flavour of a clique (or mafia :spors: ).

I'm not complaining that every course isn't listed - its amazing what is already on there :D , but that there is nothing to even suggest that there might be courses outside Scotland (which in fact might also be relevant even to Scottish learners, eg if distance, or for holidays combined with Gaelic in Canada etc) - when in fact it's common knowledge in the Gaelic learning/teaching scene that there are courses of various kinds in Canada, the USA, Germany, Australia etc. Links to them don't exactly take much hunting down, often being listed already on all the usual forums, Facebook sites etc. A few links would be enough for a start, no need for detailed breakdowns of courses.

The division on the LearnGaelic (and Clì) toolbar into different levels of learner for search purposes is also unhelpful, as it seems to mean that these more detailed breakdowns of courses are needed before they can be listed. It's also unhelpful as learners don't necessarily know their level, or they know they have different levels in different skills - especially as long as there is no general adoption of CEF levels etc to go on. In my experience people just need no-guarantee links to providers in specific areas, or for specific course-types (distance, full-time, part-time, short courses, etc) and can follow up what levels are available and possibly check themselves with the providers what their level system actually means.

And what about bookshops, online materials resources etc? Where do we look for them on the site? 'Worth a look' is too casual an area for important links. You can only find the page called 'Publishing' if you know it is there, or via a couple of different attempts via the search box for 'bookshops' (zero), then 'book shops' , for example. And the huge online world of Gaelic - forums, FBs, e-lists and the like? Where are they? Search: forum / fòram: 'cha do lorgar dad'. There is no site map that I have found.

The site is well-meaning, and has many good and potentially developable features (and does indeed take on board and utilise some good facilities, like Am Faclair Beag :D ), is also available in Gàidhlig :D , and I trust will prove helpful and attractive to countless learners, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss improvements and give feedback. :priob:

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Re: LearnGaelic

Unread postby akerbeltz » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:59 pm

And I don't have a car


Ok, my mistake Rephrase to "when was your insurance actually delivered by a meerkat"? :priob: But seriously, casting my mind over random ads I saw in the last few weeks, "Malaysia truly Asia" ... well, not really, though it's nice, "MacDonalds I'm loving it" - yeah right. It's just advertisement speak and we can't grumble about the Mòd's stuffiness on the one hand and then, when a Gaelic organisation embraces 21st century ad-speak start complaining about the semantics. I really don't see the problem with that strapline.

And I DO pay my subscription.

it doesn't make sense for anyone running classes not to submit a few details


Certs. Shows you how strange some *ahem* organisations are.

so can't perhaps put too much into publicising what's available in other geographical areas, but the the description should then echo this - 'A one-stop-shop for Scottish learners of Gaelic' or something.


I think you're confusing two things here. CLI was hired by MG Alba to develop a tool that would aid Gaelic learners to find classes locally. That's why you see CLI in and around that classes/map section. The rest of the site is not down to CLI and I can assure you the "one stop shop" thing is NOT down to CLI. That came from the MG Alba end as far as I know.

Secondly, there was the issue of time. While some aspects of the site had been in the making for a while, others had a much more... err... ambitious, if not punishing, timescale. As far as I know the idea always was to include classes elsewhere but that in the first instance, they'd only do Scotland for a number of reasons (I think I've said it at least twice now, so apologies if I won't repeat it). Rome wasn't built in a day.

The content of the links was a bit of a rush job I think and not definite by any means. I know the site looks a tad thin on content here and there but if you consider that a lot of it was not produced for an online platform, you may begin to appreciate the scale of the task and the time it took...

It's odd defending (feels like it) a project that's not even one of my own :roll: but it was one of the more inclusive Gaelic projects that I've worked on and I feel positive that if you write them an email with suggestions about links that are missing, classes abroad etc that they will take you seriously. As far as I know, phase 2 is still on the books.

Or perhaps I gave off the wrong impression - I'm NOT on the MG Alba steering group beyond the Faclair Beag aspect of it (though I did in fact cause the change from green as a signature colour to blue as they had by coincidence picked exactly the same shade of green as Ùlpan had :lol: ). So perhaps you're well-meant feedback is simply directed at the wrong person.

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Re: LearnGaelic

Unread postby faoileag » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:26 am

A Mhìcheil, you don't have to defend or explain. It's not your job. We know that. I also am very aware of what goes into a website and how incredibly hard it is to get a first version that is acceptable to all, as I have been involved heavily in the same sort of thing for my own institution and eadar dà sgeul in others (not the technical side but what the public sees).

But target user usability is the crux, and I am entirely pragmatic on that. If it works, great; if it doesn't, or has muddy, unresolved, missing or misleading issues, that is important. Tell me. That's what I need to know. And if it's not finished, and more is to be expected, TELL the users. How should they know, or care, what the Clì (who?) / MG Alba (what?) balance is. They shouldn't have to.

In that spirit - sin aca e.

(NOT sin agad e. :priob: As you may have noticed, I have no bones to pick with your own work. Practical, usable. )

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Re: LearnGaelic

Unread postby akerbeltz » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:27 am

TELL the users


I totally agree... I just had another look-see and I'm slightly confused too, I'm sure it was supposed to have some bits telling users it's work in progress and I have no idea where the About page went to. Hm. I'll drop off a couple of emails on Monday. You're right, it leaves people guessing.

I have no bones to pick with your own work. Practical, usable.

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Sorry if I over-reacted a bit, tha fhios a'm nach ann riumsa a bha sibh.

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Re: LearnGaelic

Unread postby GunChleoc » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:01 am

Ach bha e math beagan fiosrachaidh a bharrachd fhaighinn mun làrach seo air sgàth 's nach eil a leithid air an làrach ud fhèin (fhathast) :D

Is dòcha gum bu chòir dhut ceangal dhan deasbaid seo a chur thuca nuair a bhios tu a' sgrìobhadh ach an tuig iad carson a tha na puingean cudromach airson cliù na làraich. Bhithinns' fhèih ga dhèanamh, ach is dòcha gum bi e nas fhasa dhaibh a h-uile rud fhaighinn ann an aon phost-d.
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Re: LearnGaelic

Unread postby faoileag » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:04 pm

More useful and encouraging information, in fact a real overview, in this article about the site, than in the introductory page of the site itself. That's the sort of thing I find strange.

http://www.build.ie/national_news.asp?newsid=133772

E.g.
A dedicated freephone helpline will also be made available from Friday 21 October which will allow users to gain expert advice, directed to appropriate resources pertinent to their individual needs, as well as being assessed on their level of fluency.


That is a lot more informative than this:

LearnGaelic:
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