Sgoil Ghàidhlig Loch Laomainn Ceap Breatainn

Deasbaid air cùrsaichean chànain amsaa. / Anything about language courses etc.
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Sgoil Ghàidhlig Loch Laomainn Ceap Breatainn

Unread postby Gràisg » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:28 am

http://www.gaelicschooloflochlomond.com/

The Gaelic School of Loch Lomond Nova Scotia



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Unread postby Seonaidh » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:16 pm

Oh silly me - I always thought Loch Lomond was in Veccia Scotia.

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Unread postby faoileag » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:31 pm

Tha 'mission statement' inntinneach an seo:

http://www.gaelicschooloflochlomond.com ... ssion.html

gu h-àraidh mu dhèidhinn na ceiste 'native speakers'. Barailean laidir, gu dearbh fhèin.

Bu toil leam cluinntinn beachdan Akerbeltz, Nèill Bhig, Art &co.

In order to understand the significance of this, we must clarify the terms native speaker and learner. These terms can be used to further erode the language if one assumes that only "native speakers" truly qualify as legitimate speakers. Among native speakers and learners we need to carefully delineate between "autochthonous", "first language", "second language", "primary users" and "secondary users". Autochthonous speakers are those who were first language/primary speakers. That is, they learned Gàidhlig as a first language and used it as a primary language, day to day, throughout their entire lives. There are autochthonous speakers of German, French, Arabic, Spanish, and so forth. What we mean by "native speakers" in the Gàidhlig world today, however, are not autochthonous speakers but those who are first language/secondary users with regard to Gàidhlig. As English speakers, they are second language, primary users. So, we can see a clear trend in Gàidhlig fluency which reveals the decline:

Autochthonous (mother tongue, life-long daily use) ------------------------->First language/secondary use(first language, occasional or non-use) ---------------->Second language/secondary use (second language, occasional or non-use)

amsaa.

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Unread postby Seonaidh » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:50 am

Fhad 's a bhios rudan mar seo (mission statement amsaa) air an sgrìobhadh sa Bheurla (an àite sa Ghàidhlig), cha bhi luchd "autochthonous" Gàidhlig ann idir.

Sa Chuimrigh tha iad ag ràdh "Popeth yn Gymraeg!" (a h-uile rud sa Chuimris) agus 's urrainnear fuireach, m.e., ann an Caenarfon mar Chuimreach "autochthonous". Càit' an urrainnear seo (fuireach mar Ghàidheal "autochthonous") a dhèanamh ann an Alba (Shean no Nuadh) an-diugh?

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Unread postby An Gobaire » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:15 am

Tha thu cho ceart 's a ghabhas, a Sheonaidh. Chan eil àite ann, ach an dachaigh, ma chruthaicheas (no ma ghleidheas/chumas) teaghlach iad fhèin e.

An aon raon-obrach as aithne dhomh far am faodar obair tron chànan uile gu lèir agus far a bheil tachartasan poblach gan cumail tro Ghàidhlig a-mhàin, 's e foillseachadh nan leabhraichean aig Ùr-Sgeul.

Tha a h-uile rud eile "dà-chànanach", agus tha sin a' ciallachadh gur i Beurla a gheibh làmh-an-uachdar anns cha mhòr a h-uile gin dhiubh.
Dèan buil cheart de na fhuair thu!

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Unread postby Níall Beag » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:14 pm

faoileag wrote:These terms can be used to further erode the language if one assumes that only "native speakers" truly qualify as legitimate speakers.

I've always said I'm not a Gaelic speaker and I never will be.
By the same token, I'm not a Spanish speaker and I never will be.

The moment I considered myself anything other than an English speaker, my Gaelic, Spanish etc would suffer, because to say Gaelic is my language is to imply that what I say is unquestionably correct.

In English, if I ask you "Can I (do something)?" and you say "it's may I do something, not can I" I can tell you where to go, because I'm an English speaker and I (like most people) say "Can I".

However, as a learner, I recognise that I must adapt myself to other people's speech, and when I hear that they say something differently from me, I can't think they're wrong or that they're speaking a "funny dialect" or anything. It's their language, they're right and I'm wrong.

I have every right to use the language, but I have no right to call it my own.

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Unread postby An Gobaire » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:35 pm

An Gobaire wrote:
An aon raon-obrach as aithne dhomh far am faodar obair tron chànan uile gu lèir agus far a bheil tachartasan poblach gan cumail tro Ghàidhlig a-mhàin, 's e foillseachadh nan leabhraichean aig Ùr-Sgeul.


Ueill, leugh mi thairis air seo a-rithist agus chan eil fhios agam a bheil e fìor a-nis...! Tha na tachartasan aca gu lèir air an cumail ann an Gàidhlig a rèir coltais, agus chan aithne dhomh buidheann sam bith eile a bhios a' cumail nan tachartasan aca tro Ghàidhlig a-mhàin, ach Sabhal Mòr Ostaig, 's dòcha...

ach gun teagamh tha SMO air tighinn fo sgèith UHI barrachd is barrachd a-nis gus a bheil a h-uile rud a bhuineas do raon nan riaghailtean is rianachd a' tighinn bhuapasan agus mar sin, tha a' chuid as motha den luchd-obrach ag obair tron Bheurla...oir feumaidh iad "dearbhadh càileachd" is goileam mar sin a choileanadh. Mar as motha a thig SMO fo bhratach UHI, 's ann as motha a thig buaidh na Beurla orra - mar nach biodh e làidir gu leòr mar-tha!
Dèan buil cheart de na fhuair thu!

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Unread postby An Gobaire » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:06 pm

Níall Beag wrote:
faoileag wrote:These terms can be used to further erode the language if one assumes that only "native speakers" truly qualify as legitimate speakers.

I've always said I'm not a Gaelic speaker and I never will be.
By the same token, I'm not a Spanish speaker and I never will be.

However, as a learner, I recognise that I must adapt myself to other people's speech, and when I hear that they say something differently from me, I can't think they're wrong or that they're speaking a "funny dialect" or anything. It's their language, they're right and I'm wrong.

I have every right to use the language, but I have no right to call it my own.



NÈILL - Tha a' chòir a th' agad air a' Ghàidhlig a' cheart cho dligheach ri gin de luchd-labhairt cànain sam bith eile. Ma tha thu air a gabhail riut fhèin gu fìrinneach, cò dhaibhsan a tha nan Gàidheal san latha a th' ann, agus NACH bi ga cumail suas iad fhèin, a chanadh riut nach eil a' chòir agad a' cheart cho dligheach riutha-san?

Chan e seo ceist na còrach air a bheil thu a' bruidhinn...ach ceist fileantachd is eòlais ann an labhairt a' chànain fhèin. 'S iomadh Gàidheal a tha siùbhlach anns a' chainnt a fhuair iad san dachaigh, ach bhon a tha na suidheachaidhean mun timcheall orra, far am faod iad an cainnt mhàthaireil a chleachdadh, a' sìor chrìonadh - tha gach ginealach a' sìor chall an grèim air reimeannan sònraichte agus an saidhbhreas de bhriathran is ghnàthsan-cainnt a tha an lùib iad sin.

'S e cnag na cnùise ma-tà, gun togadh tu do bhonaid a-nuas do Ghàidheal ma bhios ceist ann eatorraibh, a thaobh facal no abairt no gràmar "ceart" na Gàidhlig - agus tuigidh mi sin. Ach, san latha a th' ann, ged a bhios an ginealach òg nas siùbhlaiche ann an labhairt na Gàidhlig, chan eil dearbhadh ann gum bi iad nas eòlaiche air faclan, no gràmar na neach-ionnsachaidh a th' aig ìre àrd de chuid oideachaidh san teanga.
Last edited by An Gobaire on Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Níall Beag » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:39 pm

An Gobaire wrote:'S e cnag na cnùise ma-tà, gun togadh tu do bhonaid a-nuas do Ghàidheal ma bhios ceist ann eatorraibh, a thaobh facal no abairt no gràmar "ceart" na Gàidhlig - agus tuigidh mi sin. Ach, san latha a th' ann, ged a bhios an ginealach òg nas siùbhlaiche ann an labhairt na Gàidhlig, chan eil dearbhadh ann gum bi iad nas eòlaiche air faclan, no gràmar na neach-ionnsachaidh a th' aig ìre àrd de chuid oideachaidh san teanga.

Does not compute... does not compute...

By definition, non-natives cannot know the language better than natives. Where can rules come from if not from the speech of natives?

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Unread postby An Gobaire » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:14 am

Tha seo nas fhaisge ris an fhìrinn a thaobh cànain a tha slàn fallainn agus nach eil a' crìonadh. Ach ann an saoghal cànain far a bheil cha mhòr a h-uile neach-dùthchasach nas fhileanta anns a' chànan a tha a' cur às dhi, feumaidh tu faighneachd "Cò th' anns na natives?"
Dèan buil cheart de na fhuair thu!

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Unread postby Seonaidh » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:47 pm

Níall Beag wrote:Does not compute... does not compute...

By definition, non-natives cannot know the language better than natives. Where can rules come from if not from the speech of natives?

Thig riaghailtean bho phàrantan nam fileantach agus chan eil fios orra aig gach pàrant - chan ann fileanta gach pàrant! Nach eil thu air mearachd a dhèanamh sa Bheurla riamh? Nach ann fileanta a tha thu? Chan eil ach false modesty a th' agadsa.

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Unread postby Níall Beag » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:32 pm

Seonaidh wrote:Thig riaghailtean bho phàrantan nam fileantach agus chan eil fios orra aig gach pàrant - chan ann fileanta gach pàrant! Nach eil thu air mearachd a dhèanamh sa Bheurla riamh? Nach ann fileanta a tha thu? Chan eil ach false modesty a th' agadsa.

I think you may be mixing up you prescriptive and descriptive grammars here.
Language is what is spoken, not what some rulebook says.
Prepositions are things English speakers often end sentences with. That is not a mistake, the rule that says it's a mistake is wrong. If that's what you mean by "mistakes", then you're heading in the wrong direction. If what you mean by errors is when I hesitate, stutter, change my mind mid-sentence or just use the wrong word once in a while, these things are statistically insignificant. If they became statistically significant they would cease to be errors and would become a rule. In native-spoken language, there is no such thing as a "common error".

For example, I hear a lot of people say "I could care less" in place of "I couldn't care less", despite the two being logical opposites. While it may be logically incorrect to say "I could care less", it is never misunderstood -- anyone hearing it knows what the speaker means, and if the goal of language is to be understood, then this is valid language; it is correct language. No such thing as a common error.

And I accept that young folk don't have a great deal of exposure to Gaelic, which is why I sit in pubs talking to old folk whenever I can!

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Unread postby An Gobaire » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:34 pm

A Nèill,

Chan eil thu air togail air a' phuing, a tha mi fhìn a' meas cudromach, nach eil Gàidhlig dhùthchasach aig a' mhòr-chuid de na daoine òga aig a bheil pàrantan Gàidhlig, ged a bhiodh iad ga tuigsinn, no ga bruidhinn gu ìre air choireigin.

Mar sin, chan e an fhìrinn a th' ann a bhith gam meas "native" oir, chan eil a' Ghàidhlig aca ann an dà-rìreabh mar chainnt mhàthaireil. 'S i a' Bheurla as deise dhaibh na a' Ghàidhlig - an dà chuid labhairt agus sgrìobhadh. 'S e sin an cànan "native" aca, agus tha a' GHàidhlig aca mar darna cànan - a thaobh fileantachd is siùbhlachd co-dhiù.

Chan eil mi ag ràdh, nach eil a' Ghàidhlig dùthchasach dhaibh....'s i a' Ghàidhlig anns a bheil an dualchas aca toinnte, ach gun teagamh, cha dèan an dualchas mòran dhaibh mura chumas iad a' dol an cànan a tha ga ghiùlan, 's e sin a bhith ga gabhail riutha mar mheadhain conaltraidh anns a h-uile suidheachadh a bhios sin an comas dhaibh!
Dèan buil cheart de na fhuair thu!

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Unread postby Muiris » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:05 am

By definition, non-natives cannot know the language better than natives. Where can rules come from if not from the speech of natives?[/quote]

Chan ann ceart a tha seo idir. Tha mi air teagasg Beurla fad còig bliadhna deug a-nis anns an oilthigh agus tha fios 'am iomadh duine aig nach robh Beurla mar a' chiad chànan a tha--cuiridh mi geall--fada nas teòma mu a deidhinn na duine sam bith a-seo. Tha diofar deatamach eadar a' chiad chànan is a' phrìomh-chànan.

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Unread postby Muiris » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:06 am

I hear a lot of people say "I could care less" in place of "I couldn't care less", despite the two being logical opposites. While it may be logically incorrect to say "I could care less", it is never misunderstood --

And I accept that young folk don't have a great deal of exposure to Gaelic, which is why I sit in pubs talking to old folk whenever I can!


"I could(n't) care less" would be an emotive utterance and thus would fall into the category of a non-statement. Non-statements do not possess truth value and so fall outside the rubric of logic entirely. For example, if I say, "I don't give a flying flip" I am not making truth claims about whether it's possible to "give" as opposed to "take" a flip, whether I'm capable of even "doing a flip", or whether "a mere flip" is categorically different than "a flying flip".

The issue is whether these kinds of utterances can be meaningful. Of course they can, but that's not a function of first language acquisition per se. It's a function of common linguistic environments, aptitude and duration of reinforcement. Whether or not English is your first language, an English monoglot from Brooklyn named Vinnie with a reasonable aptitude for local idiom is going to be hard to match in terms of fluent Italian-American Brooklynese if all you yourself can muster is a local Edinburgh dialect. In fact, you and your mother tongue are going to be hard pressed to match, in terms of dialectical usage, even the guy who acquired English as a second language from Vinnie. However, neither Vinnie nor I would presume to have a corner on the One True English, and neither should you.

Yes, by all means, learn from the old folks as much as you can--while you still have the chance. This will increase your knowledge and help you to broaden your Gàidhlig. However, if Gàidhlig belongs "only" to the old folks, then it dies with them. I feel that this line of reasoning is an insult to their legacy and to the heroic efforts of those who've invested countless hours acquiring their--and, once they've acquired it, it is indeed very much "their"--new language.