Questions!

[Níall Beag]

"Bha i anns an sgoil ach cha robh e ann"

I don't know why your book had it without "anns" -- what book was this?

Akerbeltz says the second "ann" is not necessary -- and here's why:
This leaves "Bha i anns an sgoil ach cha robh e". Here "cha robh e" just means "he wasn't", where the original "cha robh e ann" means "he wasn't there". "ann" = "in it/him" and is often used as a general way of speaking about whatever place was just being talked about. This saves you having to specify whether it's "here", "there" or "over yonder" -- we already know, so we don't need to repeat it.

So it's "she was at school but he wasn't there" vs "she was at school but he wasn't". Both are valid English and have subtly different meanings. The subtleties will be slightly different in Gaelic, but I'd suggest both are valid.

[An Gobaire]

Ah, but Niall, say aloud both your examples in Gaelic, and hopefully you'll see that neither sound natural, and thus neither are correct.

Why? Cos you definitely need the emphatic pronouns in Gaelic....otherwise it sounds very clumsy indeed.

[Níall Beag]

Ah, but Niall, say aloud both your examples in Gaelic, and hopefully you'll see that neither sound natural, and thus neither are correct.

Why? Cos you definitely need the emphatic pronouns in Gaelic....otherwise it sounds very clumsy indeed.

Well, in the case of the plain "cha robh e", I'd agree.

However, if we're using "ann", I'm not sure that this is truly contrastive. The English "She was in the school but he wasn't there" isn't a contrastive sentence, because it is not comparing him and her. Instead, it is implying that it was expected that he would be there, but he wasn't.

That said, the original sentence doesn't really work for that -- "She went to the school but he wasn't there" would work without emphatic pronouns, but I supposed "she was at the school" kind of leads to a contrast, meaning we would want "cha robh esan" (without "ann").

So I ask the original poster again:
Where was the sentence taken from?

[IvoCarog]

So I ask the original poster again:
Where was the sentence taken from?

hah...sorry guys, i wasn't around for a while ...so to answer the question - it's from the TAIC course: http://taic.me.uk/.

[Seonaidh]

Och no - don't tell me "TAIC That" are back together...

'S dòcha gum bi mi ceàrr, ach bha mi a' creidsinn gun robh Niall is an Gob. a' ciallachadh rudeigin mu dheidhinn a cho-theacsa seach an fhreumh.
I could be wrong, but I was thinking Neil and the Gob were on about the context, not the source.

[An Gobaire]

Ah, but Niall, say aloud both your examples in Gaelic, and hopefully you'll see that neither sound natural, and thus neither are correct.

Why? Cos you definitely need the emphatic pronouns in Gaelic....otherwise it sounds very clumsy indeed.

Well, in the case of the plain "cha robh e", I'd agree.

However, if we're using "ann", I'm not sure that this is truly contrastive. The English "She was in the school but he wasn't there" isn't a contrastive sentence, because it is not comparing him and her. Instead, it is implying that it was expected that he would be there, but he wasn't.

That said, the original sentence doesn't really work for that -- "She went to the school but he wasn't there" would work without emphatic pronouns, but I supposed "she was at the school" kind of leads to a contrast, meaning we would want "cha robh esan" (without "ann").

So I ask the original poster again:
Where was the sentence taken from?

THere are certain things in language, that cannot be reasoned in writing. This is one of them. As language is for speaking, try speaking it and you'll see what I mean.

Bha i anns an sgoil, ach cha robh esan. ... - it still doesn't sound right, so we need "Bha ise anns an sgoil, ach cha robh esan." Adding, or leaving out, "ann" at the end, won't make a blind bit of difference, to the fact that the sentence will still sound awkward if you don't have "ise" along with "esan", whether it's contrastive or not...

Tha tòrr goileam ga spùtadh a-mach a thaobh nithean sìmplidh. 'S fheàirrde gun a bhith a' cur na dubhan air na dathan a thaobh gach puing a thogas neach-ionnsachaidh!!

Let's not confuse learners with aimless and pointless surmising....surely it's better to give a simple explanation ...???

[Thrissel]

Let's not confuse learners with aimless and pointless surmising....surely it's better to give a simple explanation ...???

Agreed as far as Ivo's concerned, but don't forget that Níall and just about everybody else here is a learner too. I see no problem when a simple question ("should there be a second ann?"), having been answered, generates as a sidetrack another ("i/ise/e/esan?") that more advanced learners are interested in, finding it trickier.

[An Gobaire]

Sure, I agree with you Thrissel. Most times the discussions are interesting and informative.

However, while reasoning about Gaelic grammar in English is fine, when one starts to use English translations of the Gaelic phrase concerned - saying, "This is fine/correct in English, so it must be correct in Gaelic", we are wandering into confusing territory.

I personally feel each language needs to be taken on its own terms if the basic meaning has been understood. Resorting to one's native tongue (or another language in which one is more fluent) to understand the meaning of the Gaelic works to a point, but then that can only be taken so far before it starts to become a futile exercise. The nuances of each language are unique to themselves..

[GunChleoc]

"This is fine/correct in English, so it must be correct in Gaelic"

You're right that this kind of reasoning can get you into trouble, what does work in English doesn't necessarily in Gaelic.

It can be helpful the other way around though: "This is how it works in Gaelic, and look, it's the same in English in this case!". Drawing parallels where they are valid can help you to remember stuff. Of course, they do need to be valid.

[Seonaidh]

Gu dearbh, a GhC. An-dràsta tha mi a' feuchainn ri beagan Gearmailtis ionnsachadh agus smaointinn "Inntinneach - 's ann coltach ris a' Ghàidhlig a tha seo", no "'s ann coltach ris a' Bheurla a tha seo". Agus tha mòran rud far nach eil a Ghearmailtis coltach ris a' Bheurla, no a' Ghàidhlig, no fiù 's a' Chuimris. Beagan mar Nirribhis, 's dòcha, no Fhraingis.