It must have been

Unread post by **Gràisg** » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:49 am

Latha breagha air choireigin saoilidh mi gun robh beagan a bharrachd fios agam gus Gaidhlig a chur air "It must have been".
Chaidh sin faighnheachd dhiom a-raoir agus 's e "Feumar e air a bhith" a thainig am barr nam cheann bhochd ach chan eil mi cinnteach idir, idir. A bheil beachd aig duine sam bith eile?

Unread post by **Níall Beag** » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:10 pm

'S e "feumaidh gun robh..." "feumaidh gum b' e..." smsaa a dh'ionnsaich mise. Feumaidh + dependent past.

Feumaidh gun robh mi ann, ach chan eil cuimhne 'm.
Feumaidh gun tuirt e rudeigin, ach cha cuala mi sian.

Unread post by **Níall Beag** » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:28 pm

Remember that in English we say "must have" for things that would otherwise take either the simple past or the present perfect.. or even the past perfect.

He must have arrived...
... by now -> he has arrived
... yesterday -> he arrived
... before it happened -> he had arrived

In English, we use the perfect because we've got no other way of indicating that it's a past event after another verb.

Seonaidh · Unread post by **Seonaidh** » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:35 pm

'S dòcha gu bheil thu ceart - chan eil mi cinnteach idir. Ach bha mi a' coimhead air "feumar e" agus "feumaidh" agus chan eil mi builteach cinnteach air na tha iad a' ciallachadh. Oir "feumar e": fulangach, "it is musted"??? No "one must it"??? Agus "feumaidh" gun ainm: bhithinn an dùil rudeigin lethid "feumaidh mi a dhol ann" no "Feumaidh thu fàgail a-nis".

Cuideachd, bha mi a' smaointinn air "B' fheudar dhomh...", sin e, "I ought to..." agus a' smaoineachadh gum b' fheudar a bhith rudeigin coltach airson "it must have..." amsaa. Ach 's dòcha gu bheil cus Cuimris agam, m.e. "Rhaid iddo fod wedi dod" (he must have come) - gu litricheil, "Feum dha a bhith air tighinn" - ach chan eil sin ceart sa Ghàidhlig idir.

Dè mu dheidhinn fhacal leithid "Dh'fheumte" no "Feumar" (gun "e") an seo?

Unread post by **faoileag** » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:14 am

A thaobh 'feumaidh' air a chleachdadh gu neo-phearsanta, tha mi a' dol le Niall.

Tha eisimpleirean ann an Colin Mark, D. 295-6.
Feumaidh gu bheil thu am mearachd - you must be mistaken (it must be that you are in error).
Feumaidh gun robh e ro sgìth - he must have been too tired.

Tha 'feumar' ann cuideachd:
feumar a ràdh gun do rinn e a dhìcheall... it must be said that... (one must say)
feumar barrachd airgid fhaighinn - more money must be found (they must find)

Bidh mise ag eadar-theangachadh '-ar' le 'they/one'.
Chithear - one can see, faodar - one must/has to...

Mar sin, chan eil feum air 'e' as a dhèidh.

Unread post by **Gràisg** » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:18 am

Tapadh leibh a chàirdean, tha a h-uile càil sin gu math feumail agus cuiridh mi ceangail bhon duilleag seo dhan neach-ionnsachaidh eil aig an robh a' cheist ud.

Unread post by **GunChleoc** » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:56 am

Ma tha thu mì-chinnteach gun do thachair e, 's urrainn dhut Dh'fhaoidte gum b' e / gun robh... a chleachdadh cha chreid. Ach 's dòcha gur e seo "It might have been" sa chànan eile?

Unread post by **Níall Beag** » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:31 pm

Seonaidh wrote:'S dòcha gu bheil thu ceart - chan eil mi cinnteach idir. Ach bha mi a' coimhead air "feumar e" agus "feumaidh" agus chan eil mi builteach cinnteach air na tha iad a' ciallachadh. Oir "feumar e": fulangach, "it is musted"??? No "one must it"??? Agus "feumaidh" gun ainm: bhithinn an dùil rudeigin lethid "feumaidh mi a dhol ann" no "Feumaidh thu fàgail a-nis".

Cuideachd, bha mi a' smaointinn air "B' fheudar dhomh...", sin e, "I ought to..." agus a' smaoineachadh gum b' fheudar a bhith rudeigin coltach airson "it must have..." amsaa.

Funny you should mention b' fheudar, as it works the same way, as in this quote from The Scotsman:
Cha b'ann tric a bhithinn ag isteachd ri Rapal air Radio nan Gidheal, ach shaoil mi gum b' fheudar gun robh e a' coimhead mar oileanach leisg, le falt fada salach agus briogais reubte.

What's notable here is that he's using b' fheudar for a conclusion, whereas we wouldn't use ought to that way in English,

Edit: here's another interesting "b' fheudar", this time from the Free Presbyterian kirk:
"agus b' fheudar gu'm biodh foillseachadh nuadh air a thoirt dhoibh san fhasach"

Here, "b' fheudar + gu(n/m) + conditional" gives us what in English would be "ought to be". The English passive equivalent of the Gaelic sentence would be:
and a new revelation ought to be brought to them in the desert

Think about it... why should the thing that's being affected be promoted to the place usually reserved for the person of thing doing the action? Gaelic still does it with physical actions, but it refuses to do it with obligation... it's not the revelation's responsibility if it's not preached after all!

Seonaidh · Unread post by **Seonaidh** » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:48 pm

Tha sin ceart, a Nèill. 'S dòcha "should". Nach e rudeigin leithid "...but I imagined he should/would/ought to look like a lazy student..." Inntinneach "b' fheudar gun robh e a' coimhead..." seach "b' fheudar dha coimhead...". 'S dòcha gu bheil seo air sgàth a' ghnìomhair "coimhead": mar as àbhaist, "coimhead air an telebhisean" an àite "coimhead an telebhisein", agus mar sin bhite doirbh "...telebhisean a choimhead" agus a leithid fhaighinn.

Unread post by **Níall Beag** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:16 pm

Seonaidh wrote:Tha sin ceart, a Nèill. 'S dòcha "should". Nach e rudeigin leithid "...but I imagined he should/would/ought to look like a lazy student..." Inntinneach "b' fheudar gun robh e a' coimhead..." seach "b' fheudar dha coimhead...". 'S dòcha gu bheil seo air sgàth a' ghnìomhair "coimhead": mar as àbhaist, "coimhead air an telebhisean" an àite "coimhead an telebhisein", agus mar sin bhite doirbh "...telebhisean a choimhead" agus a leithid fhaighinn.

I don't think that's relevant... after all, verbs with no direct object are, if anything, easier because they don't need to invert.

It's a characteristic of Gaelic. Consider things like 'S docha gu bheil e ann. The main clause (with the "is" verb) doesn't mention the person, unlike English He might be there.

Also consider that the same thing holds for the equivalent of English I want you to do it... the person is left to the second (subordinate) clause:
Tha mi ag iarraidh gun dèan thusa e. (or should that be "gun deanadh"?)

(Incidentally, an almost identical structure occurs in the romance languages: French, Spanish, Italian etc.)

Unread post by **faoileag** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:10 pm

Dè mu dheidhinn

Tha mi ag iarraidh ort sin a dhèanamh?

Seonaidh · Unread post by **Seonaidh** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:26 pm

God that's frightening, a Nèill! "I want you to do it"...glè diofraichte à "I want you", nach e? Agus tha daoine ann aig nach eil Beurla o thùs a shoirbhicheas na h-ionnsachadh!

Chan eil mi cinnteach air "'S dòcha gu bheil e ann" airson "He might be there": "Maybe he's there"?

Bu toil leam nan dèanadh tu e...ach dè tha "I want you to do it" a' ciallachadh san fhìrinn? "It would please me were you to do it", no "You will do it or else", no rudeigin eatarra? Tha e glè dhoirbh ga thuigsinn gun a chluinntinn. Agus an co-theacsa.

Unread post by **Níall Beag** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:16 am

faoileag wrote:Dè mu dheidhinn

Tha mi ag iarraidh ort sin a dhèanamh?

I think the problem here is my choice of pronoun. If we switch to "e", the difference should be clear:

Tha mi ag iarraidh air sin a dhèanamh.
Tha mi ag iarraidh gun dèan e sin.

Does "he" know you want him to do it? In the first sentence he does (because you're saying you're asking him), whereas the second doesn't make it clear whether he's been asked or not.

Consider in English:
John: Jack, will you shut the door
Jim:I'll do it.
Now John can say either I want Jack to do it or I'm asking Jack to do it and they mean the same thing in this context, because we know Jack heard the request. (Which is why "thusa" was a bad example. "thusa" will almost certainly hear the request!)

But if we go for something teen-angsty like:
I want people to notice me.
or
want him to invite me to the prom. (most teen angst on the tellie is from the USA, after all)
we're led to assume that "people" and "him" don't know.

Now instead of being equivalent to I'm asking X to Y, it's closer to I wish that X would Y, which itself is closer to the Gaelic tha mi ag iarraidh gun... structure.

Unread post by **Níall Beag** » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:22 pm

Seonaidh wrote:Chan eil mi cinnteach air "'S dòcha gu bheil e ann" airson "He might be there": "Maybe he's there"?

Both are acceptable translations. My point was to show that English has a tendency to take the person being speculated on and put him in the subject position in the main clause, while Gaelic doesn't.

To use "maybe" for this would be possible, but is slightly more complicated, but you've brought it up, and it's the cause of many learner errors, so let's run with it....

"Maybe" in modern English is an adverb, and is pretty flexible in terms of word order. Maybe I'll do it; I'll maybe see you there; I could maybe help; I'll be there, maybe.

But its etymology is fairly clear from looking at its form: "may be". It was originally, like 's dòcha is, a separate clause: it may be that ... (Consider also fixed phrases such as "that's as may be".) English's love of promoting non-active parties to the main clause is no doubt responsible, in part at least, for this becoming an adverb.

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