Place Names

~Sìle~ · Unread post by **~Sìle~** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:34 pm

I just need a little help converting the English placename Kent into Gaelic. I've tried Dwelly's online and my own Gaelic dictionary, with no luck. Can anyone assist, please?

IainDonnchaidh · Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:38 pm

Seems like I saw either Ceint or Cent recently on an old map
(I've been doing a bit of research for some writing)

It would more likely be a Bythonic/Welsh version instead.

~Sìle~ · Unread post by **~Sìle~** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:32 pm

Tapadh leibh.

Seonaidh · Unread post by **Seonaidh** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:51 am

No idea a Shile, but I do ken that it's "Caint" in Welsh, with the name coming originally from what the Romen recorded as the "Cantii" who stayed there. That may well have given "Ceint" in Middle Welsh.

The only Gaelic "kent" words shown in SMO's Stor-Data Briathrachais are all place-names of the "Ceann T-" variety, so no help there. You could try asking somebody learned - or even, e.g., Bord na Gaidhlig - for an opinion on what the best tronslotionm of Kent would be, or you could try "how would you write something in Gaelic that would be pronounced the same way as 'Kent'?" or you could go with the "Cent" or "Ceint" suggextions from JD.

Unread post by **akerbeltz** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:16 pm

Well, if the Romans recorded it as "Kantii" then the e in Kent is a simple case of vowel raising.

If Gaels had been using that name, it would now most likely be Ceint or Cint. Not Ceannt, that would come out with an /au/ vowel.

Just a word of caution though - out of context, neither will make sense to a Gaelic speaker. It's a bit like coming up with, say, Undermonkby, expecting English speakers to be able to figure the German root.

~Sìle~ · Unread post by **~Sìle~** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:18 pm

akerbeltz wrote:Just a word of caution though - out of context, neither will make sense to a Gaelic speaker. It's a bit like coming up with, say, Undermonkby, expecting English speakers to be able to figure the German root.

So, best to stick with "Kent" in a Gaelic sentence, then, i.e. when stating my place of residence?

Unread post by **akerbeltz** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:03 pm

Yes, same as you'd say that "the 6 o' clock flight from Beijing has arrived" when talking English.

Stìophan · Unread post by **Stìophan** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:33 pm

I agree with Sìle - There is no point in Gaelicising place names that have no Gaelic.

There isnt many place names in England with [recognised] Gaelic forms, the only 3 I know are:

Carlisle - Cathair Luail
Newcastle - An Caisteal Nuadh
London - Lunnainn

I ave also seen Ath nan Dàmh for Oxford but I really don't think many Gaels would know it.

amhlaobh · Unread post by **amhlaobh** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:47 am

Eabhra(i)c - York (bho Laideann: Eburacum)
(maybe) Learpho(i)ll - Liverpool, http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learpholl

IainDonnchaidh · Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:41 pm

Well at any rate, before the Sassenach invasion, the entire British Isles except for Eirinn and "Pictland" would have spoken some form of Brythonic, which somewhat survives as Cymric. (not counting Romans)

Actually, there is speculation that the "Picts" may have spoke some sort of Brythonic dialect. In fact, some of the differences between Gàidhlig and Gaeilge may have originally been "Pictish" vocabulary.

Unread post by **akerbeltz** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:02 pm

Seen "Poll a' Ghrùthain" too. The Manx have Lerpoyll, I guess you could gaelicise that as Learpaill.

Unread post by **Níall Beag** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:28 pm

Placenames are funny beasts.

I mean, we just read the capital of France off a bit of paper and mispronounce it. We've never changed the U to an O in Frankfurt. Yet we half-tr*nsl*t* Sankt-Piotrburg and most people would think Al Qahira was a terrorist organisation rather than the capital of Egypt....

I tend to be as much of a smart-Ailig as you'd expect when it comes to York and pronounce the old viking Jorvik as though it's a bay on Lewis or Harris....

Unread post by **akerbeltz** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:38 pm

Interesting... if Gaelic had adopted Jórvik, then today it would be called *Deòruig

Seonaidh · Unread post by **Seonaidh** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:17 pm

No, no, no, Mr. Acker Bilk, cha robh an J ann an Jorvik coltach ris an J sa Bheurla (Jarrow, Jordanhill...). Bha e coltach ri Y sa Bheurla. Seo an t-ainm:-

*Eborakon => Eboracum (Lad.) => Eoforwic (S.Bh.) => Jorvik (S.N.) => Yorick (Hamlet) => York (Bh.). Cuideachd, => [Caer] Efrog (Cuim.)

Liverpool: Cuimris = Lerpwl no Llyn Lleifiad
Cathair Luail: Cuimris = Caerliwelydd
Dùn Èideann: Cuimris = Caeredin
Glaschu: Cuimris = Glasgau
New York: Cuimris = Efrog Newydd, Spàinnis = Nueva York

Dè mu dheidhinn Cathair Ghrannd? Anns a' Chuimris 's e "Caer Grawnt" an t-ainm a th' air Cambridge.

Stìophan · Unread post by **Stìophan** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:24 pm

For York on I've seen Iorc, not the way I'd spell it, I'd use: Eorc.

Most Gaels will alaways use the English for English place names.

Place Names

Place Names

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