object pronouns

[akerbeltz]

Too true, I always mix those two up. Still, you have marc'h in Breton and margh in Cornish.

Reminds me of the time a friend sent me a card on the birth of twin daughters in Breton and I wrote back to congratulate him on the acquistion of two new fillies >.<

[Nate]

Now of course I'm no etymologist, but it seems to me that the welsh word Merlota (pony-trekking) could have a similar descent from March/ marc'h.
Of coure the discussion is veering a bit from the original subject, although this is interesting.

[GunChleoc]

We do tend to do that

Please feel free to drag us back on topic if you still have questions about the original subject

[Seonaidh]

"Merlota"? Bho thùs, "merlod-hàu", a chiallaicheas "asail-fhàs" (faisg air). Tha "...hàu" gu leòr farsaing sa Chuimris, m.e. "bwyd-hàu" (bwyta) = "ithe", "cryfhàu" = "fàs nas làidire" (neartaich-neartachadh). Sa Chuimris, "asal-asail" => "merlyn (f) | merlen (b) - merlod (iom.)" Chan eil mi a' creidsinn gu bheil seo bho "march": nam biodh, gheibheamaid "marlen" agus "marlod" an àite "merlen" is "merlod".

Dè tha sa Chuimris? "Marchog": 's e "rìdire" a th' ann; "marchogaeth" = "marcaich-marcachadh". Seallaidh "marchog" mar "marcaiche" nach seall? Cuideachd "meirch mwth myngvras" - Meadhan-Chuimris - "eich luatha le muingean fada"

Chuala mi cuideach gun robh facal "mark" airson "each" sa Bheurla aig aon àm.

[Níall Beag]

Now this is getting randomly interesting.

So what, does the term "to march" in English comes from the use of horses in military maneuvers? Ummm... maybe not. OED doesn't think so.

But now I'm getting a bit confused by Marks and Marches. If these are borders and/or regions, are they anything to do with horses or not?

[akerbeltz]

I think the problem is we're dealing with homophones i.e. words that just end up looking the same in the modern language.

There is the march/mark (cf Welsh Marches, Denmark, German Mark, eg Steiermark, Dänemark...) which denotes a border/border region. Related to Romance margo "edge" and, funnily enough, Old Irish mruig and Brythonic bro "region". No horses in this one.

March as in marching is via French marche "walk, step", funnily enough a loan from Frankish markōn "to mark" (via the concept of "making tracks").

Where we do get a mar- root meaning horse in non-Celtic is in the word marshall, from Old High German marschalc, with marah "horse" and scalc "servant". Also the root of modern mare.

Can't find a root ending in -k in Germanic though that means horse but I'll keep looking.

[Seonaidh]

If you have foud "marah" as an oldish Germanic word for "horse", it must have come from something like "marek", surely. As some Germanics always seem to have had contact with Celts and/or Slavs. the word could have been re-borrowed with the original K.

E.G. Old English has "hearh" for "temple" (as in Harrow-on-the-Hill, faisg air Lunnainn). That, presumably, developed from something like *karika, which, by strange coincidence, we find in Greek - kyriakon - later re-borrowed into Germanic in forms such as "kirk" to denote a specifically Christian place of worship. "Cannabis" is another double-borrowing example (OE hanep, ME hemp).

No doubt that special tube of sweeties you feed to horses is full of Marco Polos...

[akerbeltz]

Hm all my dictionaries say that beyond Germanic *marha (which IS linked to merch and marc) the derivation of this word within Indo-European is unclear.

And we can't just postulate assume loans and historic lenition, life is usually much more complicated than that

[Seonaidh]

Cò às an t-airgead, "Mark"?

[akerbeltz]

mark as in money originally meant a weight of gold or silver, from Latin marcus.

Found the other one though - Irish marc, Welsh march and Germanic mare do share the same IE root, *marko- but I can't find a modern continuation in Germanic that retains the -k-.

[Seonaidh]

...and also, perhps, Mandarin "ma"? (should have intonation marks...)

[akerbeltz]

What do agates have to do with horses? :b

馬 máh "horse" historically is from Early Chinese maɨʔ ... but you'd have to demonstrate a link between Sinitic and Indo-European. Good luck LOL

[Níall Beag]

The only plausible explanation for a genetic relation between Chinese and IE words for horses would be if they both borrowed a Mongolian word. Anyone know the ancient Mongol word for horse?!?

[akerbeltz]

Modern Khalkh Mongol for horse is "mori" but you're making it even harder - Mongol is Turkic, that would involve a 3rd family >.<

And the Mongol invasions didn't happen until the 12th century, which waaay postdates Common Germanic so fortunately, no way José!

[AlasdairBochd]

Mongòlais Nuadh airson each.

Freelang Online Dictionary mor, mori, morin, murin.

Copied from a Mongolian Dictionary (Cyrillic)

1. horse - морь, адуу, модон морь, морин цэрэг

Copied only . Chan urrain dhomh beachdachadh, ach tha e a sealltainn amharasach. Leugh mi, ged-thà, gu bheil " ь " a' ciallachadh sèimheachadh ann am Mongòlais