My apologies to the GOC

[Seonaidh]

'S toil leam a' Chuimris air "video nasty" - "ych-a-fideo"! Chan robh litir V anns a' Sheann Bheurla - bha iad a' cleachdachadh F leis an fhuaim sin, mar anns an fhacal Beurla "of". Agus sin e anns a' Chuimris fhathast.

Chan eil litir "psi" anns a' Bheurla agus tha facail mar "psycho" is eile a' cleachdachadh P + S. Chan eil litir V anns a' Chàidhlig - divven't use it. Airson am fuaim V a sgrìobhadh, feumaidh sibh cleachdachadh BH no MH ('s fheàrr leamsa BH).

"Uisgeag" - 's e "uisge beag" a th' ann, agus tha mi a' creidsinn gur e seo "vodka" anns an Ruisis. Ach carson eadar-theanglach? 'S dòcha, nuair a bhios na Sasannaich ag iarraidh "a little water" gum bu toil leotha bhodca a fhaighinn...

[Níall Beag]

Well, I'm all in favour of deleniting borrowed words. It's what would have happened naturally if we hadn't invented computers.

In 100-200 years, the verb bhòt would be bòt and the noun bhodca would be bodca; just like the Norse halla became talla.

Writing down fixed spellings in dictionaries stops this natural change, so surely we'd be better off forcing the change instead?

[Stìophan]

Ahem, what has whether words are lenited (or not) got to do with the fact that computers were invented?

It's always going to be difficult for a language accepting borrowed words where they include sounds that do not exist in that language, in Gaelic's case they DO exist (well, the sounds, not the letters), but in controlled circumstances. e.g. the 'v' sound being the lenited form of B or M.

That's why I argue we should invent new words (or tr*nsl*t* the meaning of the word, rather than Gaelicise the English), like what a lot of scholars did in English in years gone past hence why English has a large French/Greek/Latin inventory of words.

[Níall Beag]

Ahem, what has whether words are lenited (or not) got to do with the fact that computers were invented?

[...]

That's why I argue we should invent new words (or tr*nsl*t* the meaning of the word, rather than Gaelicise the English), like what a lot of scholars did in English in years gone past hence why English has a large French/Greek/Latin inventory of words.

Actually, I agree with you, but people will respond that borrowing is part of natural language change.

My point is that yes, it's a part, but it's only a part.

A natural borrowing would traditionally be used in spoken language for a long time before it is written down. However, words like bhideo have been thrown straight into the dictionary in a fixed form. This blocks the naturalisation of the word if a teachers puts a red cross next to bideo, as they undoubtedly would (because the dictionary says "bh") then the children will never take the word through the natural process.

I'm pointing out that borrowing as it stands today is not natural and I want to keep this separate from my personal preference for new coinage. I'm not pushing an agenda and I don't want to look like I am.

[Seonaidh]

Tha cuimhne agam air seann bhorrowing às a' Bheurla dhan Chuimris - "vicar". Anns a' Chuimris, 's e "micer" a th' ann.

Chan eil mi cinnteach air "V" -> "B" (no "M") anns a' Ghàidhlig. Seall:-

Latain Beurla Cuimris Gàidhlig
vir were gwr fear
vesper - - feasgar
vino wine gwin fìon

'S dòcha gum bu "fodca" is "fidio" nas fheàrr na "bodca" is "bidio"

[GunChleoc]

Those were phonetic processes that happened a long time ago - those are not words imported from Latin, but evolved from a common root.

When importing new words, delenition when appropriate would be more natural, as Nìall said.


And just an aside: mh iasn't the same as bh! mh makes the whole word nasal, bh doesn't.

Seo an dà sgillinn agamsa

[Níall Beag]

Plus you shouldn't be fooled into thinking a Latin V is phonetically the same as a modern English one. A lot of people speak and sing Latin with an Italian accent, which has a V as we know it, but that's not how it was spoken 2000 years ago.

[Seonaidh]

Yes, it is true that "mh" often causes nasalisation, while "bh" does not. This is why I would favour the "bh" representation over the "mh".

How Latin V was pronounced is anybody's guess. Modern thinking is that it was pronounced like an English or Welsh W. However, the symbol for it was the same as that used for U, so it's rather confusing. If one examines old Welsh texts, one sees the letter U and V (and sometimes F) used fairly indiscriminately to represent all sounds from a purely vocal U sound (as Ù in`Gaelic) through a semi-consonant W to a full consonant V (i.e. Gaelic BH).

It is also true that the sound-shift processes, whereby what the Romans would have pronounced as a W (or possibly V) became GW in most P-Celtic languages and F in most Q-Celtic ones, no longer operates. I was not suggesting that, e.g., "video" should be rendered into Gaelic as "fidio": i was pointing out that such a move might be more "logical" than postulating the form "bidio". One wonders whether the various roots "vidi", "gweled" and "faic" might actually be related in such a way anyway.