What's the difference? (infinitives issue)

[JoP]

So I hadn’t got it right!

I’ll try again to summarise the rules as I see them

1. If the infinitive in English has no object then you just use the verbal noun
I want to see = Tha mi ag iarraidh faicinn
Except for ‘a thighinn’, ‘a dhol’ and ‘a bhith’ according to TAIC Lesson 8
I want to go = Tha mi ag iarraidh a dhol
2. If the infinitive in English has an object then in Gaelic the object comes before the verbal noun and the verbal noun is directly preceded by ‘a’ leniting the following verbal noun (‘a’ here is a contraction of ‘do’ according to TAIC Lesson 8 which is why it always lenites)
I want to buy the house = Tha mi ag iarraidh an taigh a cheannach
3. In this case where the verbal noun begins with a vowel or ‘f’ it is preceded by ‘dh’ (according to TAIV Lesson 8)
I want to see the house = Tha mi ag iarraidh an taigh a dh’fhaicinn
4. Where the object is a personal pronoun in English, the possessive adjective rather than the personal pronoun is placed before the verbal noun and lenites the verbal noun or not depending on the rules for that personal pronoun
I want to buy him/her = Tha mi ag iarraidh a cheannach / a ceannach
You want to buy me = Tha sibh ag iarraidh mo cheannach
5. In this case where the verbal noun begins with a vowel or ‘f’ and the possessive adjective lenites the verb it is absorbed into the verb
I want to see him/her = Tha mi ag iarraidh fhaicinn / a faicinn
You want to see me = Tha sibh ag iarraidh m’fhaicinn
6. But what happens when the verbal noun begins with a vowel but is not lenited by the possessive pronoun??
I want to eat it (feminine) = Tha mi ag iarraidh a ithe?

[Níall Beag]

1. If the infinitive in English has no object then you just use the verbal noun
I want to see = Tha mi ag iarraidh faicinn

Question for the natives: would you ever say "I want to see" or would it always be "I want to see it"? (In most other languages I know we're not allowed to drop the object pronouns.)

I want to buy him/her = Tha mi ag iarraidh a cheannach / a ceannach
You want to buy me = Tha sibh ag iarraidh mo cheannach

Hold on -- slavery's illegal these days.
Here you're literally talking about buying and selling the person.

I think what you really meant was something along the lines of:
I bought him a book, which you need to think of as I bought a book for him. Gaelic doesn't allow two direct objects to a verb, so at least one is going to need a preposition....

[neoni]

3. In this case where the verbal noun begins with a vowel or ‘f’ it is preceded by ‘dh’ (according to TAIV Lesson 8)
I want to see the house = Tha mi ag iarraidh an taigh a dh’fhaicinn

nope - what they were talking about there is something different. "tha mi a' dol a dhèanamh rudeigin" - this is a different construction from "tha mi ag iarraidh rudeigin a dhèanamh" - i'd leave it for now, to avoid confusion. with vowels and with f+vowel, the a is absorbed in exactly the same way as with the masculine possessive (a (+h))

tha mi ag iarraidh cèic ithe (not a dh'ithe)
tha mi ag iarraidh sin fhaicinn (not a dh'fhaicinn)

6. But what happens when the verbal noun begins with a vowel but is not lenited by the possessive pronoun??
I want to eat it (feminine) = Tha mi ag iarraidh a ithe?

the same thing as with the possessives and nouns beginning with vowels
mo/do/a(his) lose the vowel and become m'/d' and a disappears completely (see taic lesson 13)
a(her) adds h- before vowels (dash included!)
ar/ur add n- before vowels (dash included!)
an/am adds nothing

(excuse the absurd example, but;)
feumaidh tu m' ithe
feumaidh mi d' ithe
feumaidh mi ithe
feumaidh mi a h-ithe
feumaidh mi ur n-ithe
feumaidh mi ar n-ithe
feumaidh mi an ithe



by the way,
they use do/dha to indicate buying something for someone. "tha mi ag iarraidh rudeigin a cheannach dhut"
and we were taught that "tha mi ag iarraidh faicinn" could be said by, for example, someone blind but that usually a pronoun is needed.

[JoP]

Is there any other construction like:

tha mi a' dol a dhèanamh rudeigin = I am going to do something

or is that the only one that takes the 'dh' with a vowel

tha mi a' dol a dh'fhaicinn rudeigin = I am going to see something?

[Seonaidh]

You also get the dh' in the past, e.g.
I stayed - Dh'fhuirich mi

I drank it and now I'm going to drink some more -
Dh'òl mi i agus a-nis tha mi a' dol a dh'òl barrachd (o' bama)
[forget the last bit]

[neoni]

Is there any other construction like:

tha mi a' dol a dhèanamh rudeigin = I am going to do something

or is that the only one that takes the 'dh' with a vowel

tha mi a' dol a dh'fhaicinn rudeigin = I am going to see something?

both of those are right

other things that take dh' are, as seonaidh said, the past tense, the relative future (ma dh'fhuireachas/dh'obraicheas tu an seo), anything after the word do/a (tha mi a' dol a dh'alba), anything after the word de/a (rinn e mòran de dh'obair) and probably lots of other things that i can't think of right now

[JoP]

It appears (scouring various dictionaries) that 'a' and 'de' in the examples given above are variations or contractions of 'do' which originally caused an aspirate mutation of the verb - hence the 'dh-' in front of the vowel. The same goes for the simple past tense which originally had 'do' in front of it it the independent as well as dependent forms, and the relative 'a' = 'which' or 'who' hence the 'dh-' in the relative future.

However the 'a' in the sentence 'tha mi ag iarraidh a cheannach' is the possessive adjective and did not aspirate the verb hence no 'dh-' and absorption of the 'a' into the verb

tha mi a' dol a dh'fhaicinn rudeigin
tha mi ag iarraidh fhaicinn rudeigin

Apart from the example 'tha mi a' dol a...' are there any other examples where the infinitive in English is rendered bi a + verbal noun where 'a' stands for 'to' and not 'his'

[GunChleoc]

It appears (scouring various dictionaries) that 'a' and 'de' in the examples given above are variations or contractions of 'do'

Not entirely correct - a is a contraction of both do and de. do and de are two entirely different animals http://www.akerbeltz.org/beagangaidhlig ... mar_a1.htm

[Seonaidh]

...mar anns an òran Beurla "Do, a De, a female De..."

tha mi a' dol a dh'fhaicinn rudeigin
tha mi ag iarraidh fhaicinn rudeigin

=> Tha mi ag iarraidh rudeigin fhaicinn

Do - 's e "to" a th' ann (Laideann "ad", Fraingis "à")
De - 's e "from" a th' ann (coltach ris an Laideann, Fhraingis, Spàinnis)

[Tearlach61]

Do - 's e "to" a th' ann (Laideann "ad", Fraingis "à")
De - 's e "from" a th' ann (coltach ris an Laideann, Fhraingis, Spàinnis)

And if things weren't complicated enough, do and de are often switched. Example, people will say faighneach dha instead of faighneachd dhe.

I don't know what to make of it. The practice goes back a long ways, so I am not sure I go along with dictionaries who declare the practice wrong.

Chuck

[JoP]

I think I umderstand.

'a' stands in place of 'do' or 'de' depending on the context and lenites as if it were 'do' or 'de'.

Does anyone know why 'do' (or 'a') lenites verbs beginning with a vowel by placing 'dh' in front when 'mo' doesn't? And is it the only leniting word that does this.

[GunChleoc]

Actually, you have the same thing in the past tense: Dh'ith mi e, Dh'fhàg mi e...

I think the easiest solution is to think of it as two versions of lenition, one that adds the dh' and one that doesn't.

[Níall Beag]

I think I umderstand.

'a' stands in place of 'do' or 'de' depending on the context and lenites as if it were 'do' or 'de'.

Does anyone know why 'do' (or 'a') lenites verbs beginning with a vowel by placing 'dh' in front when 'mo' doesn't? And is it the only leniting word that does this.

It's all to do with relative usefulness, meaning and recognisability.

"Mo" isn't like anything else, so vowel elision to m' isn't ambiguous.

But do, on the other hand, is extremely like the do, so we need some way of distinguishing between to something and your something. It's more important as things get smaller, so when there's no elision it's OK (I don't know why -- maybe you just have enough time to think) but when do->d' follows from mo as a possessive, it really would be confusing if we did the same thing with the preposition.

[Stìophan]

Exactly right Níall:

Do can mean 'to' or 'your'.

Both cause lention, however when it means 'your' it is never reduced to 'a' and before a vowel (or words beginning with f-) it is reduced to d'

When it means 'to' it is often reduced to 'a' and before a vowel (or words beginning with f-) you add dh' before the word.

This is the one you see in the past tense (never reduced to 'a' here e.g. cha do dh'fhag), infintives (e.g. a dh'fhaicinn) and other verbal constructions.

[Seonaidh]

This is the one you see in the past tense (never reduced to 'a' here e.g. cha do dh'fhag), infintives (e.g. a dh'fhaicinn) and other verbal constructions.

A Stiophain - take cover - you may be about to suffer an attack from the "there's no infinitive in Gaelic" squad...