Coimhearsnacdh Ghàidlig ùr? Coinneamh fhiosrachaidh
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horogheallaidh
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aig deireadh an latha, ma tha feadhainn ann a tha deonach airson fuireach anns a choimhearsnachd seo, dh'fhaodadh iad seo a dheanamh - an argamaid a th'agam, sin gum bi seo a' toirt iomhaigh mi-fhreagarrach dhan gaidhlig fhein - nam bheachdsa co dhiu
bidh muinntir beurla a' faireachdainn gur e coimhearsnachd lan amadain a th'ann agus tha mise a' faireachdainn gur e droch eisimplear a th'ann airson gaidhlig agus droch eisimplear mar a tha sinn feuchainn airson gaidhlig a leasachadh.
tha gaidhlig ann an suidheachadh air leth gugallach mar tha agus bu coir dhuinn a bhith togail am profile aig gaidhlig na aite cumail air falbh ann baile beag againn fhein.
rud nach cordadh rium, sin airson seo a bhith a toirt cron dhan gaidhlig
rud eile bha mise den bheachd gun robh cnag agus bng airson gaidhlig a brosnachadh air feadh alba? mur eil iad a toirt taic dhan sgeama seo, s docha gu bheil adhbhar math aca?
bidh muinntir beurla a' faireachdainn gur e coimhearsnachd lan amadain a th'ann agus tha mise a' faireachdainn gur e droch eisimplear a th'ann airson gaidhlig agus droch eisimplear mar a tha sinn feuchainn airson gaidhlig a leasachadh.
tha gaidhlig ann an suidheachadh air leth gugallach mar tha agus bu coir dhuinn a bhith togail am profile aig gaidhlig na aite cumail air falbh ann baile beag againn fhein.
rud nach cordadh rium, sin airson seo a bhith a toirt cron dhan gaidhlig
rud eile bha mise den bheachd gun robh cnag agus bng airson gaidhlig a brosnachadh air feadh alba? mur eil iad a toirt taic dhan sgeama seo, s docha gu bheil adhbhar math aca?
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akerbeltz
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Ceist
Cha robh mi aig a' choinneamh, 's dòcha gun deach seo a fhreagairt ann ach, ciamar a chumas sgeama mar seo daoine le Beurla a-mach?
Can gu bheil 100 teaghlach agad aig an toiseach, gach aon dhiubh làn Gàidhlig no 'ga h-ionnsachadh co-dhiù. Ceannaichidh iad 80 dachaighean anns a' bhaile ùr seo.
Mar a thachras, tha cuid dhiubh a' briseadh suas. Tha Calum X a' falbh agus caraid ùr aig Malcolmina aig nach eil Gàidhlig. Tha e airson gluasad ann ach chan eil ùidh aige ann an Gàidhlig. Dé nis? Taobh eile an rathaid tha Màiri Fhada air obair ùr fhaighinn ann an Obar Dheathain. Tha iad a' reic an taigh ach chan eil teaghlach le Gàidhlig ann a tha deònach a cheannach bhon a tha e ro dhaor. Dé nis?
Mas aig aig na daoine a bhios na taighean, chan urrainn dhut smachd a chumail air có théid ann gus nach déid.
Mas ann air mhàl a bheir thu seachad iad bidh beagan a bharrachd smachd agad ach chan ann gu tur. Cha bhiodh seo colach ri Bóthar na bhFháil idir, bha dà choimhearsnachd air an "deagh roinneadh" ann. Gu fortanach, chan eil a leithid againn an-seo.
Fhionnlaigh, chan e càineadh a tha seo ach ceist. Innis dhuinn mar a dh'obraicheas seo.
Can gu bheil 100 teaghlach agad aig an toiseach, gach aon dhiubh làn Gàidhlig no 'ga h-ionnsachadh co-dhiù. Ceannaichidh iad 80 dachaighean anns a' bhaile ùr seo.
Mar a thachras, tha cuid dhiubh a' briseadh suas. Tha Calum X a' falbh agus caraid ùr aig Malcolmina aig nach eil Gàidhlig. Tha e airson gluasad ann ach chan eil ùidh aige ann an Gàidhlig. Dé nis? Taobh eile an rathaid tha Màiri Fhada air obair ùr fhaighinn ann an Obar Dheathain. Tha iad a' reic an taigh ach chan eil teaghlach le Gàidhlig ann a tha deònach a cheannach bhon a tha e ro dhaor. Dé nis?
Mas aig aig na daoine a bhios na taighean, chan urrainn dhut smachd a chumail air có théid ann gus nach déid.
Mas ann air mhàl a bheir thu seachad iad bidh beagan a bharrachd smachd agad ach chan ann gu tur. Cha bhiodh seo colach ri Bóthar na bhFháil idir, bha dà choimhearsnachd air an "deagh roinneadh" ann. Gu fortanach, chan eil a leithid againn an-seo.
Fhionnlaigh, chan e càineadh a tha seo ach ceist. Innis dhuinn mar a dh'obraicheas seo.
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horogheallaidh
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- Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:49 pm
- Corrections: I'm fine either way
- Location: An t-Eilean Dubh
inntinneach fionnlagh, na rudan a sgriobh thu - nach eil thu smaoineachadh gu bheil e cudthromach airson iomhaigh a bhith ann ge ta, fius ma tha thu faireachdainn gu bheil e ro anmoch?
chan eil mi-fhin air an aon ramh idir le sin - channainsa gu bheil deagh chothrom ann na laithean seo leis a sianal tbh ur againn airson oidhirp a dheanamh le iomhaigh gaidhlig gun a bhith a dol a-mach air a cheile le torr daoine
de chanas iad? keep your friends close and your enemies even closer
chan eil mi-fhin air an aon ramh idir le sin - channainsa gu bheil deagh chothrom ann na laithean seo leis a sianal tbh ur againn airson oidhirp a dheanamh le iomhaigh gaidhlig gun a bhith a dol a-mach air a cheile le torr daoine
de chanas iad? keep your friends close and your enemies even closer
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Níall Beag
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Finlay,
The thing that worries me in this debate is that you switch instantly from talking about intergenerational transmission to adult education, with no break, and no indication that you view them as separate things.
You talk about bringing families of learners together in a single community -- there are very few adult learners who acheive a suitable level of learning any given language in their first couple of years for being a source of intergenerational transmission.
Encouraging parents to talk to their children in Gaelic before they themselves are conversationally competent is dangerous as it risks stunting the child's own linguistic development.
Now it is regularly commented that lack of Gaelic childcare is a big problem for parents attempting to bring up their children as Gaelic speakers, and one of the biggest potential plusses about this community would be if it had the clout to get a decent childcare scheme going, with native speaking carers. (Even if it were only an informal network of nursing mothers.)
If learner parents were able to bring their kids up speaking English at home and leave the intergenerational transmission to the natives, that would be good, but my biggest fear is confused Gaelic being produced by kids taking their mothers' beginner Gaelic as a model.
Now, you do keep pointing out that intergenerational transmission isn't happening in a large number of island and mainland families, and I even remember you telling me about a native speaker asking advice on how to teach a kid Gaelic.
The problem that intergenerational transmission faces is simply one of education -- there are various myths that go unchallenged.
As I said in Edinburgh, everyone talks about bringing children up as Gaelic speakers, but I just don't hear people talking about bringing kids up bilingually.
If you really want to encourage intergenerational transmission, suitable education would be far more efficient and effective than building a new village, but of course both could be done.
But at the moment, I just don't hear this stuff about bilingualism. I hear parents say "they'll pick up English outside" and all that sort of thing. In the Basque Country they have the same attitude to Spanish, which is all well and good, but I tried to point out to a native Basque speaker that his adult-learner wife can't present a very good model of Basque to their kids, but he can, whereas she can present a perfect model of Spanish. Instead they only speak Basque at home and the children aren't exposed to Spanish until they go to primary school. The children could be brought up perfectly bilingual, but in effect the parents have sacrificed their proficiency in both languages in the name of activism.
So why aren't you or anyone else encouraging bilingualism? Why is everyone shooting off on different extremes -- TV, towns, training courses, big events -- but not telling people the simple stuff?
But if the Niseach were making these same points, then they were maybe looking at GME as a bigger deal than it was. A village <i>is</i> a big deal. Maybe they were blowing it out of proportion, but maybe in this case it's proportional.
They say in financial ads that "past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results," and this goes for you too. You have done a lot for the language and no-one would be daft enough to say otherwise, but that doesn't mean that the next thing you do won't be a failure.
Oh actually, wait a moment. Someone <i>did</i> suggest that you haven't done much for the language: you.
Think about it: you keep saying that schooling is not enough, because the kids go out into the playground and speak English, right? (I agree, naturally.[*])
So you are saying that this Gaelic education is not a major success. It hasn't stopped the decline of Gaelic, and people in the system still speak English whenever given the choice.
If we take past performance as indicative of future results, then it logically follows that people in the new village will speak Gaelic in "class" (metaphorically speaking) but then will go out into "playground" and start speaking English. What the equivalent of the class and playground would be, I don't know.
This is not an attempt to attack or slag you or your work, but a defence of other people's opposition and concerns regarding this scheme. It just always seems to me that you hold up previous schemes as "credentials" for why your next idea is so good, and really that's more than a little misleading, in light of the above.
Nìall.
[*] Although the long-term payoff of GME still isn't known. At least kids now have the opportunity to learn it. Even if they turn their backs on it, it's still a hell of a lot easier to come back to it as adults with the knowledge that they've gained through their education. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years the SMO will be running "Fàilte air ais" short courses and TIP's Gàidhlig 'san Dachaigh will be full of fluent speakers seeking a wee bit of information on playtime talk for their kids. We just don't know.
The thing that worries me in this debate is that you switch instantly from talking about intergenerational transmission to adult education, with no break, and no indication that you view them as separate things.
You talk about bringing families of learners together in a single community -- there are very few adult learners who acheive a suitable level of learning any given language in their first couple of years for being a source of intergenerational transmission.
Encouraging parents to talk to their children in Gaelic before they themselves are conversationally competent is dangerous as it risks stunting the child's own linguistic development.
Now it is regularly commented that lack of Gaelic childcare is a big problem for parents attempting to bring up their children as Gaelic speakers, and one of the biggest potential plusses about this community would be if it had the clout to get a decent childcare scheme going, with native speaking carers. (Even if it were only an informal network of nursing mothers.)
If learner parents were able to bring their kids up speaking English at home and leave the intergenerational transmission to the natives, that would be good, but my biggest fear is confused Gaelic being produced by kids taking their mothers' beginner Gaelic as a model.
Now, you do keep pointing out that intergenerational transmission isn't happening in a large number of island and mainland families, and I even remember you telling me about a native speaker asking advice on how to teach a kid Gaelic.
The problem that intergenerational transmission faces is simply one of education -- there are various myths that go unchallenged.
As I said in Edinburgh, everyone talks about bringing children up as Gaelic speakers, but I just don't hear people talking about bringing kids up bilingually.
If you really want to encourage intergenerational transmission, suitable education would be far more efficient and effective than building a new village, but of course both could be done.
But at the moment, I just don't hear this stuff about bilingualism. I hear parents say "they'll pick up English outside" and all that sort of thing. In the Basque Country they have the same attitude to Spanish, which is all well and good, but I tried to point out to a native Basque speaker that his adult-learner wife can't present a very good model of Basque to their kids, but he can, whereas she can present a perfect model of Spanish. Instead they only speak Basque at home and the children aren't exposed to Spanish until they go to primary school. The children could be brought up perfectly bilingual, but in effect the parents have sacrificed their proficiency in both languages in the name of activism.
So why aren't you or anyone else encouraging bilingualism? Why is everyone shooting off on different extremes -- TV, towns, training courses, big events -- but not telling people the simple stuff?
Segregation of schooling is still a controversial topic in Scotland, although at the moment it's mostly a question of catholic vs secular schools.Fionnlagh wrote:Nach iongtach e gu bheil nan aon bheachdan thaobh sgaradh agus droch iomhaigh ag eiridh a seo sa chaidh a thogail nuair a bha mi a cur foghlam fo aois sgoile agus Aonadan Gaidhlig air doigh ann an Nis (Leodhas) agus as cha mhor a h-uile ait eile air an tuath. Cha bhitheadh tu air seasamh seachdainn san iomairt sin, coltach ri ioma duin' eile.
But if the Niseach were making these same points, then they were maybe looking at GME as a bigger deal than it was. A village <i>is</i> a big deal. Maybe they were blowing it out of proportion, but maybe in this case it's proportional.
They say in financial ads that "past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results," and this goes for you too. You have done a lot for the language and no-one would be daft enough to say otherwise, but that doesn't mean that the next thing you do won't be a failure.
Oh actually, wait a moment. Someone <i>did</i> suggest that you haven't done much for the language: you.
Think about it: you keep saying that schooling is not enough, because the kids go out into the playground and speak English, right? (I agree, naturally.[*])
So you are saying that this Gaelic education is not a major success. It hasn't stopped the decline of Gaelic, and people in the system still speak English whenever given the choice.
If we take past performance as indicative of future results, then it logically follows that people in the new village will speak Gaelic in "class" (metaphorically speaking) but then will go out into "playground" and start speaking English. What the equivalent of the class and playground would be, I don't know.
This is not an attempt to attack or slag you or your work, but a defence of other people's opposition and concerns regarding this scheme. It just always seems to me that you hold up previous schemes as "credentials" for why your next idea is so good, and really that's more than a little misleading, in light of the above.
Nìall.
[*] Although the long-term payoff of GME still isn't known. At least kids now have the opportunity to learn it. Even if they turn their backs on it, it's still a hell of a lot easier to come back to it as adults with the knowledge that they've gained through their education. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years the SMO will be running "Fàilte air ais" short courses and TIP's Gàidhlig 'san Dachaigh will be full of fluent speakers seeking a wee bit of information on playtime talk for their kids. We just don't know.
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Seonaidh
- Posts: 1486
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- Location: Faisg air Gleann Rathais
Mar a thachras tha mi ag ionnsachadh Gàidhlig an-dràsta agus, gu dearbh, chan eil Gàidhlig fhileanta no cheart gu lèir agam! So, bidh mi a' sealltainn air a' Ghàidhlig a sgriobhas daoine agus a' feuchainn ris a tuigsinn agus, am bitheantas, ga gabhail mar ceart.Fionnlagh wrote: Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:57 am
It seems pointless continuing a conversation with people who hide behind screens or names and can say anything they wish with no come back.
This I find unacceptable, so it is time to leave your forum.
Ach mar a thachras cuideachd ionnsich mi Beurla agus tha Beurla fhileanta agus ceart gu leòr (bidh mi ag ràdh "ceart gu lèir" cuideachd) agam. Bha mi a' toiseachadh smaoinntinn nach robh Gàidhlig Fhionnlaigh ceart gu lèir ach cuideachd a' smaoinntinn "Uill, chan eil mòran Gàidhlig agamsa fhathast, 's dòcha gu bheil a h-uile càil an seo ceart". Ach a-nis chunnaic mi - tha fios agam - nach eil Beurla Fhionnlaigh ceart gu lèir.
Ma chluinneas tu e a' bruidhinn no Beurla no Gàidhlig, seadh, cha bhi trioblaid ort. Ach nuair a nì e an sgrìobhadh tha rudan beaga a-mach às na h-àiteagan aca. Seo, creid mi, carson nach toil leis leabhraichean.
Tha mòran daoine coltach ri seo - 's dòcha gur e dyslexia an t-ainm a th' ann - agus cha dèan seo daoine nan amadain no nan droch dhaoine. Ach nuair a bhios neach a' feuchainn a chiorram a cheileadh agus ga chleachdadh mar adhbhar airson rudeigin a thoirmisgeadh (m.e. cleachdadh leabhraichean), sin olc.
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Níall Beag
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Well precisely. It's not a simple numbers game, and if intergenerational transmission is the goal, why don't we focus on kids? I keep seeing you talk about adult learners.Fionnlagh wrote:Yes of course, Gaelic education has helped to slowed down the rate of decline.
We have some 2000 plus children who would not be Gaelic speakers today, but it is not enough to have speakers who do not use the language when they become adults. Much more is required in minority language situations when inter-generational transmittion is a goal.
But there is more to the debate than simply numbers as can be seen in Ireland with over 2,000,000 people having their education in the Irish language (we are not talking about Irish as a 2 hour each week wonder).
But the debate isn't open because you continue to dodge the point. Any time one thing is raised, you move on to another, and not one that is closely related.A thaobh coimhearsnachd lan Gaidhlig, co thubhairt nach bitheadh trioblaidean ann mar a tha as a h-uile ni a thoisicheas as ur, nach e sin aon de na priomh aobhairean a chaidh an deasbuid seo fhosgladh dhan mhor-shluaigh.
So I'll pose three questions, and I would appreciate direct answers.
Here goes:
Do you believe that a monolingual (Gaelic) or bilingual (Gaelic & English) household serves the child's development better?
If a woman only starts Gaelic lessons on the day she is discharged from the maternity ward, can she be an agent for intergenerational transmission?
How would you define the adult learner's role in assisting his or her child's development as a Gaelic speaker?
(Feel free to answer in Gaelic -- I understand it, but I've been having trouble writing it myself recently.)
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Tearlach61
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Uill, bheir mi an sealladh agamsa ach tòisichidh mi leis a' bhun-bharail agam. Cha leig cùisean a leas a bhith foirfe mus dean mi rudeigin. I play the cards that are dealt me and I don't wait for a royal flush before I place bets.
Tha fhios gur iadsan a chaidh an togail sa Ghàidhlig bho thùs, 's iadsan as fheàrr airson a bhith togail clann sa Ghàidhlig. Chan eil teagamh sam bith ann a sin.
"If a woman only starts Gaelic lessons on the day she is discharged from the maternity ward, can she be an agent for intergenerational transmission?"
Why not? Cuimhnich, chan eil i a' teagaisg saigheans niùicleasach, tha i a' togail paist nach bi comasach aon fhacal a ràdh taobh a-staigh bliadhna co-dhiù 's tha ùine aca an cànan ionnsachadh còmhla.
Feumaidh mi stad an seo, tha mo nighean ag eigheachd orm (sa Ghàidhlig) tha i ag iarraidh rudeigin bhuam.
Tha fhios gur iadsan a chaidh an togail sa Ghàidhlig bho thùs, 's iadsan as fheàrr airson a bhith togail clann sa Ghàidhlig. Chan eil teagamh sam bith ann a sin.
"If a woman only starts Gaelic lessons on the day she is discharged from the maternity ward, can she be an agent for intergenerational transmission?"
Why not? Cuimhnich, chan eil i a' teagaisg saigheans niùicleasach, tha i a' togail paist nach bi comasach aon fhacal a ràdh taobh a-staigh bliadhna co-dhiù 's tha ùine aca an cànan ionnsachadh còmhla.
Feumaidh mi stad an seo, tha mo nighean ag eigheachd orm (sa Ghàidhlig) tha i ag iarraidh rudeigin bhuam.
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Tearlach61
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a' leanntainn orm...
Tha fhios gu bheil thu buailteach Gàidhlig caran craicte ionnsachadh dhan chlann agad math thòisicheas tu aig an dearbh àm sa theid am pàist a bhreith. Ach ma tha thu mothaicheil air a sin 's faiceallach, faodaidh tu sin a sheachnadh. Tha sàmhlaichean de theaghlaichean a thionndaidh dhan Ghàidhlig as deidh dhan chlann aca a bhreith. Mas math mo chuimhne, bha clann aig Ruairidh MacIlleathain 's a' bhean mar tha nuair a thòisich iad Gàidhlig ionnsachadh agus 's e Gàidhlig cànan an teaghlaich aca.
Thòisich mise Gàidhlig a dh'ionnsachadh nuair a bha mo nighean sia mìosan a dh' aois. 'S chanain-sa, an duighleadas a th' aice ri taobh na Gàidhlig, 's e nach eil coimhearsnachd Ghàidhlig ann an-seo. Nan robh, tha mi cinnteach gum bi i na bu chomasaiche na dòighean-labhairt. Chunnaic mi sradag dhe sin nuair a bha sinn ann an Alba. Chuala i Gàidhlig bho dhaoine eile cha mhòr a h-uile latha 's dh' fhàs i fada na bu bhuailtiche nan àbhaist fhreagairt sa Gàidhlig.
Cuimhnich, tha cuid as motha dhe na fileantaich sa Ghàidhlig ro aosd airson a bhith clann aca. Tha mìonn-cànan ann an-seo ann an Alasga, Haida, chan eil ann ach dusan fileantaich air fhàgail 's iad uile seachdad air 80 bliadhna.
Mas e suidheachadh foirfe a tha thu ag iarraidh, tha Gàidhlig air bàsachadh mar tha.
Tha fhios gu bheil thu buailteach Gàidhlig caran craicte ionnsachadh dhan chlann agad math thòisicheas tu aig an dearbh àm sa theid am pàist a bhreith. Ach ma tha thu mothaicheil air a sin 's faiceallach, faodaidh tu sin a sheachnadh. Tha sàmhlaichean de theaghlaichean a thionndaidh dhan Ghàidhlig as deidh dhan chlann aca a bhreith. Mas math mo chuimhne, bha clann aig Ruairidh MacIlleathain 's a' bhean mar tha nuair a thòisich iad Gàidhlig ionnsachadh agus 's e Gàidhlig cànan an teaghlaich aca.
Thòisich mise Gàidhlig a dh'ionnsachadh nuair a bha mo nighean sia mìosan a dh' aois. 'S chanain-sa, an duighleadas a th' aice ri taobh na Gàidhlig, 's e nach eil coimhearsnachd Ghàidhlig ann an-seo. Nan robh, tha mi cinnteach gum bi i na bu chomasaiche na dòighean-labhairt. Chunnaic mi sradag dhe sin nuair a bha sinn ann an Alba. Chuala i Gàidhlig bho dhaoine eile cha mhòr a h-uile latha 's dh' fhàs i fada na bu bhuailtiche nan àbhaist fhreagairt sa Gàidhlig.
Cuimhnich, tha cuid as motha dhe na fileantaich sa Ghàidhlig ro aosd airson a bhith clann aca. Tha mìonn-cànan ann an-seo ann an Alasga, Haida, chan eil ann ach dusan fileantaich air fhàgail 's iad uile seachdad air 80 bliadhna.
Mas e suidheachadh foirfe a tha thu ag iarraidh, tha Gàidhlig air bàsachadh mar tha.