Gaelic Activities Programme

[Tearlach61]

"You claim immersion courses are the best way to learn a language..."

I wouldn't go that far. Immersion, not immersion courses is the best way to learn a language. Sitting down for a couple of hours, one evening a week, just won't cut it as far as I am concerned, be it an ' immersion' course or other. If it's only a couple hours duration, it's not immersion.

But I will say I was able to create for myself a sort of immersion light type atmosphere with Litir that was very helpful to me. I did have to spend some time looking words and such but I let litir play in the background while doing other things until they became like songs you can't get out of your head.

[Níall Beag]

I misread you - sorry.

But what you did say was that you as a teenager learnt in a "natural" way, like an infant, while admitting that you did use books, which an infant wouldn't.

Until I pushed on the books issue, the image you presented was that 100% immersion courses work, while this is not your experience. This is how myths start!

While I agree that immersion is vital and that you can't acheive fluency without active use of the language in an interactive, immersive environment, learning the building blocks of language must be done in some part consciously to allow the learner to engage in an immersive environment.

This is particularly true in the case of something like Gaelic, where almost every single learner and native speaker share another language -- there is simply no necessity in Gaelic, and if it's too much hassle to use it, if you know that you don't need it, you'll just speak something else instead.

[Tearlach61]

"Until I pushed on the books issue, the image you presented was that 100% immersion courses work, while this is not your experience. This is how myths start!"

I am not talking about immersion courses. I am talking about immersion. Anybody I've met who has had the oppurtunity learn a language in immersion environment (not course!) was successful in learning that language.

I point to the immersion as opposed to looking at grammar as the cause for success is that my french is a Quebec variety of French that is talk in no book. Not to exagerate the differences, but wherever there is a difference, I speak the Quebec variety. As for the grammar, it was a help that helped accelerate the process.

Final thought, got to go. A multipronged approach is best.

[Seonaidh]

Dè sin? An e cùrsa bogaidh a th' ann, no cùrsa bàthaidh? Chan eil fios agam air a chiallachas "immersion". Ma tha sibh ag iarraidh Gàidhlig fhileanta a bhruidhinn, 's dòcha gum bi àrainneachd aon-chànan nas fheàrr. Ma tha sibh ag iarraidh eadar-theangachadh a dhèanamh, 's dòcha nach bi àrainneachd aon-chànan nas fheàrr. Agus creididh mi gum bi an dà chuid cudthromach. Dhan fheadhainn, bidh còmhradh nas deatamaiche na eadar-theangachadh, dhan fheadhainn eile nach bi. Crochaidh mòran air an neach fhèin. Anns a' Bheurla, canaidh iad "horses for courses" - a bheil ràite choltach anns a' Ghàidhlig?

[Níall Beag]

Dè sin? An e cùrsa bogaidh a th' ann, no cùrsa bàthaidh? Chan eil fios agam air a chiallachas "immersion".

Tha e Gàidhlig tro meadhan na Gàidhlig, no cànan sam bith eile tro mheadhan na chànan fhéin.

Ma tha sibh ag iarraidh Gàidhlig fhileanta a bhruidhinn, 's dòcha gum bi àrainneachd aon-chànan nas fheàrr. Ma tha sibh ag iarraidh eadar-theangachadh a dhèanamh, 's dòcha nach bi àrainneachd aon-chànan nas fheàrr. Agus creididh mi gum bi an dà chuid cudthromach. Dhan fheadhainn, bidh còmhradh nas deatamaiche na eadar-theangachadh, dhan fheadhainn eile nach bi. Crochaidh mòran air an neach fhèin. Anns a' Bheurla, canaidh iad "horses for courses" - a bheil ràite choltach anns a' Ghàidhlig?

Tha, ach chan eil cuimhne 'm air.

Ach, mura b' urrainn dhuit comradh a dheanamh, chan eil an cànan agad. Mura bhios an cànan agad, 's e drochd eadar-theagadair a bhios annad.

I don't buy the horses for courses argument for one minute. We're all after the same thing: language. We all need to learn it properly, and we're all very similar, when all is said and done. Most current courses either overdo or underdo the active study of grammar, and most courses (whether immersive or bilingual) either overcompartmentalise or understructure the grammar content.

Right now we've got people arguing "horses-for-courses" to perpetuate this battle of extreme opposite philosophies, rather than people looking for the middle-ground of digestible, comprehensible content.

[Fionnlagh]

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[Fionnlagh]

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[Níall Beag]

'S docha gum bu chorr dhuibh leughadh na sgriobh Shannon C. Macdonald a Alba Nuadh a thaobh cho luath sa thog ise Gaidhlig le TIP thall ann an Canada agus gu dearbha fhein chan eil i leatha fhein.

Dà bhliadhna -- math fhéin. Ach ann an ceithir bliadhna, dh' ionnsaich mi dà chànan gu fileantas bho toiseach-toiseachaidh, agus thog mi piosan beaga de leth-dhusan cànanan eile. Gun TIP.

Mar a thubhairt Shannon-fhéin:

Another student and I were highly motivated, I think because of our community context and the sense of urgency and obligation we felt.
It is good to remember not to expect other students to work as hard as we did.

Agus mar a thubhairt mise:

Not only "good", but "vital". Never use your best students as evidence of success -- more like than not they're responsible for their own success, not the teacher.

'S docha nach ann leatha fhéin a tha i, ach tha mi cinnteach nach bitheadh i leatha-fhéin leis am "motivation" nas motha.

Nach sibh a tha dha-riribh duinte nuair a thig e gu smuaintean ura.

There is nothing new about immersive methods. I've already said this.

An drasta fhéin, tha mi ag ionnsachadh dhomh-fhéin teagaisg san doigh anns an do dh'ionnsaich mi Spàinntis. Tha mi a' teagaisg Beurla tro meadhan na Spàinntis do dà Spainnteach agus aon Frangach. As déidh dà leasan, tha sinne toilichte gu leòr. Chan eil mi a' teagaisg rudan ùra -- tha mi a leasachadh an fileantas leis na riaghailtean a th' acasan bhon sgoil, ach a dh'aindheon seo, tha mi a' creidsinn gu bheil e a' sealltain dhomh cho èifeachdach a tha 'n doigh seo teagaisg. Rinn sinn barachd air uair 's leth gun stad, agus 's e iongantas mór a bh' oirrn nuair a thug sinn sùil air an uaireadair.

Tha na riaghailtean nas cudtromaiche a' fas gu math soilear dhomh, ann an doigh nach do dh'fhas iad nuair a bha mi a' teagaisg làn-thìde anns na doighean àbhaisteach.

Chan eil mi a' smaointinn fhathast air ciamar a chleachdadh mi seo air son Gàidhlig, ach nuair a bhitheas mi deiseil ris a' Bheurla, smaoinichidh mi air gun teagamh.

[akerbeltz]

Never use your best students as evidence of success

Àidh... agus chan e "rannsachadh" a th' ann ma chuireas tu ceist air an tìdsear agus na h-oileanaich an robh iad "toilichte" leis a' chùrsa. Sin beachdan agus tha iad gu tur eadar-dhealaichte bho rannsachadh cruaidh. Feumaidh tu sgioba bhon taobh a-muigh airson sin a nì rannsachadh air comasan nan oileanach *mus do* thòisich iad agus as déidh an rud. Cha do rinn sibhse le TIP aon seach aon dhiubh agus chan eil e gu diofar co mheud turas a théid innse dhuinn gu bheil daoin "toilichte leis" ann an Canada, tha sin cho làidir mar fhianais 's tha seoclaid san t-Sahara aig meadhan-latha.

Agus chan eil mi dùinte do rudan ùra idir ach tha e tùrach ciallach ma chuireas tu sùil gheur air rud a tha cuid a' reic dhut mar pheilear airgid. Chan eil annad ach dearg amadan ma ghabhas tu ri gach rud ùr a thig 'nad rathad gun smaoineachadh... Crystal Pepsi, subprime mortgages agus TIP.

[neoni]

o chionn dà bhliadhna cha robh facal gàidhlig no gearmailtis agam, agus cha bhruidhinn mi ach anntasan na laithean sa.

chan eil dà bhliadhna idir luath dha cuideigin cho motivated sin. gabhaidh leth cheud facal ionnsachadh ann an latha, agus bhiodh naoi miosan fada gu leòr airson an cainnt freagarrach do chuspair sam bith ionnsachadh.

[faoileag]

Bidh gach fear ag ionnsachadh air doigh - agus aig astar - eadar-dhealichte.

'S e aon eileamaid a th' anns am 'motovation' gu dearbh; tha tàlant, aois, cothrom is eile ann cuideachd.

Saolidh mi gum bi thusa, neoni (m.e.), gu math òg, agus air ionnsachadh làn-ùine aig SMO, nach bi? Sin seòrsa 'immersion' gun teagamh, agus chleachd thusa an cothrom agad - sin thu fhèin.

Ach mar neach-ionnsachaidh pairt-ùine, le obair is teaghlach is cùraman eile, chan urrainn dhomhsa 50 facal ionnsachadh an latha.

Dhomhsa fhìn (mar eiseimplir cuideachd), feumaidh doighean agus cothroman eile a bhith ann - measgachadh bogha-froise. Sin am 'method' agamsa. Agus tha e ag obrachadh.

Chan eil aon doigh ceàrr no ceart.

[Fionnlagh]

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[neoni]

Ach mar neach-ionnsachaidh pairt-ùine, le obair is teaghlach is cùraman eile, chan urrainn dhomhsa 50 facal ionnsachadh an latha.

's e glè bheag de dh'uine a bhiodh a dhìth ort. chan eil fhios an e dìreach mise a th' ann, ach le flashcards agus 's dòcha coig mionaidean deich turas san latha, thig faclan gu math furasta dhomh. chuireadh an tìde a chaileas sinn ri feitheamh air rudan iognadh ort. nuair a bha mi ag ionnsachadh gearmailtis, dhèanainn eadar fichead is dà fhichead càirtean gach oidhche, is bheirinn dhan obair leam iad an ath latha. an uair sin, gach turas a bh' agam ri feitheamh air clò-bhualadair no làrach-lìn no an leithid, leughainn tro ceithir no coig càirtean.
chan eil e idir furasta, oir bidh d' inntinn ag obair gu cruaidh, ach chan toir e mòran de thìde.

[Níall Beag]

It is very clear that we have different objectives. Mine are to develop systems and methods to enable inter-generational transmittion to occur and for that there are many things that need to be done over and above simply learning Gaelic.

Then why do you continue to conflate the two things into one? TIP is first and foremost about initial language education.

I must admit that I've never been clear on what you mean by Gàidhlig 'san Dachaigh, but I've had a look at the website, which I have to say is exceptionally clear and well laid out.

However, you are conflating two separate issues: initial learning and intergenerational transmission.

I would be fully supportive of any courses that seek to fill the gaps in a fluent speaker's vocabulary relating to child-rearing, but if you make this the goal of initial learning then you corrupt the natural progression of learning.

Take a step back and pop down to your local library. Flick through some other languages. See how much more rigid those are that consider situations more important than language structured in its own terms. Even just think about "ciamar a tha thu?" a favourite of teachers but which I reckon only 25% of Gaels I've met actually use. Fixed language like that just isn't that useful.

So, yes you can learn a language to fluency and still not be able to ensure that inter-generational transmittion occurs. Without Gaelic dies and rather quicker than many here seem to realise.

Yes, but you're putting the cart before the horse. Running before you can walk.

Once people are fluent, they can start thinking about intergenerational transmission, but people who are only learning present an unsuitable model -- the next generation of natives will inherit learner errors.

What you are doing is drowning your dog in cream, mar a chanas 'ad.

Unfortunately, television and road-signs have little or no long-term effect on this situation.

What's long term and what's short term? Having Gaelic as part of the habitual environment encourages it's use in the here and now. The more we use Gaelic, the better we know it. Language is one area where the short term always affects the long term.

Akerbeltz said it right -- you're peddling a silver bullet, a panacea, one size fits all. Language development has to be approached from multiple angles. One course doesn't fix the language.

Unlike others, I do believe that the perfect initial learning course can be written; I don't believe we have our own ways of learning, simply that we have our own ways of coping with suboptimal input in poor courses. In other words, we cope with failures in teaching in different ways, but successes in teaching in the same way.

However, that's the way in to a language -- developing it further and keeping it going need something completely different, and you're trying to do both in one.

Finlay, if there was only one thing that I could say to you it would be this:
You are good at identifying problems, and these problems must be highlighted. By identifying these and presenting them, this is a service to the language.

However, you are doing yourself and the language a disservice by entangling these problems with your proposed solution. On the simplest level, this makes your message unclear.

More dangerous is that when you confuse question and answer, rejection of the answer often leads to rejection of the question.

So identify problems and present them clearly and simply.
By all means, offer a possible solution, but give the problem it's own space to breathe and let us consider them separately.

People here actually share a lot of common ground with you, and nobody seems to realise it, because you've built a monolithic system and you're not allowing us to explore the common ground between us.

[Fionnlagh]

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