Coimhearsnacdh Ghàidlig ùr? Coinneamh fhiosrachaidh

[Fionnlagh]

xxxx

[Níall Beag]

It seems that Niall Beag is just playing games as he makes it clear that Gaelic would not even come into the equation if other languages were present, such as Spanish. But is he fluent enough to pass Spanish onto children since he is not a native speaker or even should he ever use it with children.

Finnlay,
You are missing my point about primary and non-primary caregivers, and I thought I'd made this point clear by using Chuck as an example.

If the primary caregiver (usually the mother) provides the child with a fluent, native-level model of language*, then it is not strictly necessary for any secondary or subsequent carer to provide such a model. The child must have as primary a complete fluent model of language. If any additional languages are broken or imperfect, that only leads to flaws in the child's use of that particular language, but if the primary language is flawed or broken, the child will have problems with expression in any language. These are starkly different problems.

As for my Spanish, well it's good enough to convince native speakers that I'm Spanish, which unfortunately I can't do (yet?) with Gaelic.

I resent the implication that I'm "playing games" and I certainly wouldn't say that Gaelic "would not even come into the equation" because it certain would be considered. Once again you are trying to dismiss my points by mudslinging, which is anything but professional. The two examples I gave were purely hypothetical and neither seems likely at this point. Many other scenarios would give Gaelic the upper hand -- for example if I married a French woman or an Italian, I wouldn't see Spanish as being particularly useful, considering how closely related it is to French and Italian. And if I married a Gael....

As I said, whatever happens I will always chose what is best for my children. While I would prefer that my children speak Gaelic, I will not sacrifice them to activism.


* Yes, it may be possible for a non-native to learn to native fluency, but it's practically impossible to judge. But then again, there are distinct neurological differences between L1 and adult-learned languages (as proven by case studies of selective aphasia in polyglots) so it is truly impossible to say with any certainty that any adult-learned language is native-level equivalent.

[Níall Beag]

There are so many issues being raised here that it is impossible to cover each one.

Not trying to be funny, but you're the one who keeps bringing new things into the discussion.

If you wish to bring up children bi-lingually then I suggest you look at the litrature on Family Language Planning, which is available from CNSA in Inverness.

If it's available in electronic form then I'd welcome a copy, but I'm overloaded with books and pamphlets. I can't see it on the website -- what should I be asking for?

It is a much better plan for couples to learn Gaelic before the child is born so that they can use the language with their child from day one, but if there is no alternative then day one is a good starting point if that is the earliest time they wish to do so. The couple should also embark on a Bumps and Babies Gaelic TIP and Gaelic in the Home course or a mixture of both.

I still don't see exactly what you mean when you talk about couples. Are you proposing the creation of a monolingual home environment, or a mixed-language environment? I understand that this will be better explained in CNSA's literature, but for now what I want to know is whether or not you support the idea of a monolingual household.

TIP courses themes are presented with all the items available to create a natural learning environment so that parents can then reproduce the language used in their own home environment. For example if we are talking about a nappy change, then all the items related to changing a nappy must be on hand for it to work. Pictures on their own will not do either if we wish to create a parallel and functional learning environment not only that all those present need to be involved.

I'm not big on any claims of a "natural learning environment". Any classroom environment is synthetic, and there is a danger that we discard some of our most useful tools simply because they look least "natural".

I can't see any real support for the validity of taking first-language acquisition as a model for adult language learning.

Unfortunately the natural model for adult learning is largely closed to research -- the men's and women's languages of various Pacific islanders. Even if the researchers can get accepted into the tribe, learning the adult language is only possible after a coming-of-age ceremony, which usually involves some kind of painful genital alteration, so as yet no pedagogue has dared study what natural adult learning is.

The best solution is to come along and see how a TIP theme works first hand as all are welcome to join in. If you already speak Gaelic come along also as the more Gaelic speakers present the wider the range of language and activities that can be done not only at the session but also by teaming up with a student afterwards.

OK, who do I need to speak to to arrange a visit to an Edinburgh-based group?

[Tearlach61]

"I can't see any real support for the validity of taking first-language acquisition as a model for adult language learning."

Mar a thuirt mi mar tha, tha an dòigh sa dh' ionnsaich mi Fraingis fada nas choiltiche ri TIP na dòigh sam bith eile 's bha mi còig bliadhna deug aig an àm. Ged nach do dhiùlt mi faclair a cheachdadh, thàinig a mhòr cuid de na faclan as steach tro mheadhan coimhtheacs sa leithid 's an rud ceudna leis mo chuid gràmmair 's chan eil mi nam aonar san dòigh seo. Dh' faodainn suas ri dhusan ainmeachadh a rinn an ìre mhath an dearbh rud nuair a bha iadsan nan deugaire.

Ann an dòigh, tha e a' cur iogngadh orm gur e cùis-deasbaid a tha seo. Gach bliadhna, tha mòran oileanaich a' dol a dhuthchanan thall thairis 's iad seachd neo ochd bliadhna deug a dh' aois, bith a' mhòr chuid a' tighinn air ais 's cànan ùr aca, air ionnsachadh ann an dòigh caran TIP.

'S dòcha gum bu chòir dhan fheadhainn a bhios a' deanamh rannsachadh sa leithid sùil a thoir air a sin.

Tha inntinneach, ann am Peursa na seachdainn-sa, sgrìobh Ruairidh alt mu Hawaiianais. Seo earrain às:

"...bho ochd ceud fileantach gu ochd mìle ann an dà dheichead! Le deòin mar sin, dh'fhaodamaid faighinn gu leth-mhillean neach-labhairt na Gàidhlig anns an dearbh ùine!"

"...Chuir na Hawaiianaich nàdar de chròileagain — Punana Leo (neadan cànain), mar a chanas iad riutha – air dòigh agus tha poileasaidh cànain aca annta a tha làidir làidir. Tha iad an dùil gum bi pàrantan, no co-dhiù aona phàrant, ag ionnsachadh a' chànain a cheart cho math ris a' chloinn. Rud eile a mhothaich mi — 's e sin gu bheil clann a chaidh tron t-siostam foghlaim aca a-nise a' roghnachadh Hawaiianais, seach Beurla, a bhruidhinn rin cuid chloinne fhèin..."

'S dòcha an rud as fheudar, 's e gun tuit àireamh luchd-labhairt na Gàidhlig sìos gu ochd ceud!!

Co-dhiù, gheibhear alt gu slàn ri leughadh an seo:

http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news ... eursa.html

[Níall Beag]

"I can't see any real support for the validity of taking first-language acquisition as a model for adult language learning."

Mar a thuirt mi mar tha, tha an dòigh sa dh' ionnsaich mi Fraingis fada nas choiltiche ri TIP na dòigh sam bith eile 's bha mi còig bliadhna deug aig an àm. Ged nach do dhiùlt mi faclair a cheachdadh, thàinig a mhòr cuid de na faclan as steach tro mheadhan coimhtheacs sa leithid 's an rud ceudna leis mo chuid gràmmair 's chan eil mi nam aonar san dòigh seo. Dh' faodainn suas ri dhusan ainmeachadh a rinn an ìre mhath an dearbh rud nuair a bha iadsan nan deugaire.

Ann an dòigh, tha e a' cur iogngadh orm gur e cùis-deasbaid a tha seo. Gach bliadhna, tha mòran oileanaich a' dol a dhuthchanan thall thairis 's iad seachd neo ochd bliadhna deug a dh' aois, bith a' mhòr chuid a' tighinn air ais 's cànan ùr aca, air ionnsachadh ann an dòigh caran TIP.

There are several points here:

First, you and other students have a true "learning imperative" (as Finlay would put it) in that you have no choice but to learn to function in that language. However, when you go into a TIP class, you know full well that every other person in the room can speak English. If the learning imperative is the need to communicate an idea, not being able to express yourself because of artificial constraints is massively frustrating -- the Gaelic environment prevents you unnaturally from communicating, and many people resent that. It becomes a source of stress and gets in the way.

Secondly, the experience of the student overseas is true immersion -- he is exposed to a massive variety of untuned input, as well as tuned input from those modifying their speech to assist his understanding. An immersive class can only provide simulated immersion, and generally does so by tuning the input to assist the learner, even if only subconsciously. This is a consequence of by the Observer's Paradox: “the aim of linguistic research in the community must be to find out how people talk when they are not being systematically observed; yet we can only obtain this data by systematic observation.” (William Labov) In the immersive environment, the learner is an observer, and in an immersive class the teacher knows he's being observed, so the language used is not truly natural. Furthermore, the student overseas receives input primarily from native speakers, but the immersive class is overwhelmingly populated by other learners.
I'm yet to be convinced that natural immersion can be accurately simulated.

Third, as I said earlier: you have to learn to function in the language. The natural learning imperative of immersion is to get enough of a message across to survive, and many pedagogical schools make this an explicit goal: fluency and accuracy are unimportant if the message gets across. This is fine for tourist language, where the mistakes of the learner will not have any effect of the fabric of the language being studied. However, here we're talking about large-scale language revival, an attempt to create a new generation of speakers at a stroke. Any errors created by the learning process will have a profound and fundamental effect on the form and nature of Gaelic.

This is perfectly acceptable for a language like Cornish or Manx where the previous generation of native speakers had died out completely -- the change of the language is not detrimental to anyone -- but where there is a significant population of native speakers a large learner-led change in the language is an unacceptable outcome. It disenfranchises the native population by misappropriating and undermining their linguistic identity, because it's suddenly the natives who are speaking "wrong".

In between those two extremes we have situations like that of Hawai'i, where there is an emaciated base of native speakers. At that point, the native speakers accept the changes as needed for the survival, and maybe that explains the difference in attitudes to learners in Nova Scotia and Scotland. Maybe some would argue that we need to change attitudes here, but I suggest that it's better (and easier) to change the learners.

Besides, I'm well acquainted with the "year out" experience after my time in Spain and considering I spend several hours each week in the company of foreign "gappers" in Edinburgh, and quite simply most people find it hard even getting to a functional level, never mind an accurate one. Most of the Spanish people I know say "I done", "he done" etc in place of of "I've done" and "he's done", despite continued exposure to the correct form -- they are unable to hear the contracted auxiliary verb and drop it. They have the same problem with the continuous: "I'm doing" becomes "I doing".

The ones who gain accuracy in the immersive environment appear to be those who do an appropriate amount of conscious study before and/or during the immersion, so have a conscious command of their own spoken language -- Chuck, you've already told me that you had this. Even if the grammar lessons didn't perfectly match the vernacular spoken forms you heard and learnt, they gave you a framework against which to understand the basic construction of the language.

Immersion is only half the story, and it's too easy to take someone's success and ascribe it all to immersion, ignoring what has been done outside the truly immersive environment.

Ascribing my success in Spanish solely to immersion would be demonstrably incorrect. I spent 3 months living in Spain and since returning have spent on average somewhere between an hour and an hour-and-a-half speaking Spanish each week. A friend at the same group spends a little bit more time each week speaking Spanish, after spending an entire year in South America. Furthermore, she spent that time speaking Spanish almost exclusively, while I was an English teacher and lived 80% of my life through English. Yet of the two of us, it's me that gets mistaken for the native speaker. I'm sure the short dark Celtic genes help, but the main difference between the two of us is in the conscious instruction and self-instruction that I have undertaken. Yes, that conscious instruction wouldn't have done much without immersion -- that's why both elements are important to the post-pubescent learner. Again, Chuck: you had both.

[Fionnlagh]

xxxxx

[Tearlach61]

Sa chiad dol-a-mach, tha mi ag iarraidh innse mar a tha an deasbad seo a' còrdadh rium 's tha deagh phuingean agad - aig amannan co-diù .

Tha deagh phuing agad, chaidh m' ionnsachadh na fraingis a stiùireadh gu ìre le gràmmair. Ach nuair abhruidhinn mi, dh' fhairich mi nan robh rudeigin ceart neo ceàrr 's bha m' fhaireachdainn stèidhte air na chuala mìle thar mìle thuras 's chan ann air riaghailtean.

Ach am measg nan rudan as tha sinn a' deasbad tha: 1) dòighean-ionnsachaidh cànain 's 2) a bheil e freagarrach do mhàthair a clann a thogail ann an L2, darna cànan seachd sa phrìomh chànan aice.

Dhomhsa, ri thaobh an dàrna puing, 's ann a tha thu ro ghlèiteach 's tha an argmaid agamse steidhte sa mhòr chuid chan ann air rannsachadh ach air boireannaich a b' aithne dhomh. Mar eiseimpleir, b' aithne dhomh, boireanach ann an Quebec, bha i mu fichead sa còig bliadhna dh' aois 's 's ann as na Stàite a bha i bho thùs. Thòisich i Fraingis ionnsachadh an ìre mhath aig an dearbh sa thòisich mise, bha na deugaire co-dhiù. Ach 's e bliadhnaichean mòra bho a bhruidhinn i Beurla gu ìre mhòr sam bith. Bha a' fuireach ann an sgire far nach robh Beurla ann 's bha i posta ri Quebecois aona-chànanach 's bha clann aca. Nuair b' aithne mise i, bha a cuid Beurla air crìonadh gu mòr 's bha e na b' fhasa Fraingis a chleachdadh seach Beurla ris a cuid cloinne.

San fharsaigneach, dhomhsa, tha thu a' deanamh cus de na duighleadasan a th' aig inbhich ri thaobh ionnsachadh cànan. Dhomhsa, tha cuid mhòr de na duighleadasan a th' aig inbhich stèichte air na dòighean ionnsachaidh. Mar eiseimpleir:

"Any errors created by the learning process will have a profound and fundamental effect on the form and nature of Gaelic."

Tha mi leat gu bheil cunnart ann gun tig cus abairtean Beurla le gleans Gàidhlig a-steach dhan chànan. 'S e anglecisme a thuirt iad ris ann an Quebec. Ach mas ann gu bheil thu faiceallach, faodar cuid mhòr dheth sin a sheachnadh. Agus sin an gearran a th' agam ri thaobh dòighean-ionnsachaidh a tha ro stèidhte air gràmmair. Ma thòisicheas iad ro thràth, bith na fir-ionnsachaidh a' cruathachadh Gàidhlig bho Beurla tro mheadhan gràmmair, agus an rud a nochdas as mar as trice 's e Beurla le gleans Gàidhlig. Feumaidh luchd-ionnsachaidh a bhith mothachail air a sin. Dhomhsa, seachnaidh tu sin le bhith a' cleachdadh a-mhàin fìor abairtean Gàidhlig a chuala bho bhilean fìor Gaidheal. Cha bu chòir dhut abairtean a chleachdadh mura a chuala thu iad an toiseachd, airson ùine mhòr co-dhiù. Agus sin as coireach gur toil leam a leithid TIP, tha e stèidhte air abairtean an toiseach seach gràmmair an toiseach. Cha cleachd an t-oileanach ach fìor abairtean bho thoiseach. As deidh dhut mòran mòran abairtean Gàidhlig dh' ionnsachadh, faodaidh tu structur chur riutha le gràmmair.

[ScotiaBalach]

O' all the times to live in America!!!

[Seonaidh]

O' all the times to live in America!!!

- tha thu fòrtanach! Cuir mo dheagh dhùrachdan ri Barrachd ogha Bama nuair a bhios tu ga fhaicinn...

[Níall Beag]

Bu mhiann leam innse dhuibh gum bi Till a toiseachadh a' togail airgiod as a Bhliadhn' Uire airson Aonad sonraichte chur air chois far am bi cursaichean TIP lan thide dh' an deanamh.

Bithidh e nar run £4.85m a thogail airson an Aonad seo agus tha h-uile duil gum teid againn 8 neo 9 de cursichean eadar-dhealaichte chur air adhart aig an aon am, do luchd ionnsachaidh agus cuideachd do fhileantaich.

Now this could be a major stumbling block.

There are many Gaelic teachers in Scotland teaching in many different ways -- surely the unit should be open to all of them?

I imagine many people will be less than happy with you raising money to support your own scheme. I would much prefer an independent unit renting rooms out to yourselves, Deiseal and any other organisations/individuals who chose to offer courses.

I know you believe strongly in the efficacy of your techniques, but you will be alienating a massive segment of potential support if you propose providing yourself with a monopoly.

[Níall Beag]

Agus sin as coireach gur toil leam a leithid TIP, tha e stèidhte air abairtean an toiseach seach gràmmair an toiseach. Cha cleachd an t-oileanach ach fìor abairtean bho thoiseach. As deidh dhut mòran mòran abairtean Gàidhlig dh' ionnsachadh, faodaidh tu structur chur riutha le gràmmair.

I've two problems with that.

1) I want to express myself.

Fixed phrases become a protocol, not a language, because you cannot be creative, you cannot be individual. Language learning is fraught with questions of identity.

Many people have problems grasping the accent, for example, because they see their accents as being part of their identity. I know a woman who has an completely "foreign" accent in Gaelic, but will protest that it's her accent, it's a Glasgow accent and that Glasgow is a Gaelic town, so no-one can ever tell her that her accent is not Gaelic. This is simply a justification of every language learner's natural feelings -- I was discussing this with a Russian learner recently. He was saying that when he practises, he speaks with a reasonable accent, but when he speaks to people it gets very heavily anglicised. I suggested that it was a matter of identity -- that when practising he wasn't worried about how genuine or sincere he was, but when he was trying to connect to people, he felt "fake" when talking as a real person in someone else's accent. He reckoned I was right. I went through that with Spanish, which is the only language I've really had to try to "live" through.

Now, why all this stuff about accents? If you keep creativity out of the actual language (words, phrases and sentences used) you are challenging their individuality. This might manifest itself in the student using their own accent as a defiant assertion of individuality, or it might cause them to drop out of the course completely.

The question of individuality is even more extreme when you engage in techniques of the Total Physical Response school -- TPR involves telling the student to do something, and them indicating their comprehension by doing it. Basically, the student must obey the teacher at all points.

I learn languages to express myself, to assert my independence and underscore my individuality. I don't know anyone who has the same combination of languages as me, and that becomes part of my identity. If asked to discard my individuality and creativity in a class, I would lose all motivation.

2) I don't beleive in the effectiveness of inductive learning.

They call this kind of thing inductive learning. The idea is that the student internally logically "inducts" structure for a comparison of input.

I have several concerns about induction:

A) Imperfect memory
We've all misquoted someone. We usually do this by imposing our own words on someone else's meaning. IE. we do not remember the exact utterance, rather the meaning.
If we do not store the sentences that we have heard, just the meaning behind them, then we cannot have an internal "corpus" or "database" of examples for comparison, so the induction process surely cannot occur in the first place.

B) Imperfect perception
We mould what we hear to fit what we expect to hear. The easiest example is accents. I do not need to be able to speak in an Australian accent to understand an Australian speaking English. I do not have to be able to recreate Spanish-speakers English errors to understand a Spanish speaker speaking English. My brain instead takes the input and makes the leap of connect what they say and how they say it to what I say and how I say it. It follows that the Gaelic learner's brain will distort input to make it fit some sort of imperfect model, thus leading to the Lewisman I know who uses "'S toil leam" as a verb: "'Stoileami gu mór e." "An toileam thu e?" People say "an toil leat e" and "s toil leam e" to him all the time, but his brain ignores the differences as though it's mere dialectal variation or something, and he will never ever notice this mistake without conscious intervention.

C) Incomplete comprehension
The brain is a very efficient machine -- it filters input and processes only the minimum required to understand. So for example, if you only ever hear the word "ainm" in "Dé an t-ainm a th' ort" and "'S e ... an t-ainm a th' orm" then your brain starts to learn that there are only two import elements in the two sentences: the word "tainm" and "Dé" or "'S e". I've heard many learners when presented with a simple question answering a completely different question -- one of the "classroom favourites" that has two or three words in common with the question asked. When we base our teaching on complete phrases, we present too much seemingly redundant information and the brain will just bin the stuff it doesn't need. If the course presented lots of variations with the same elements, the students would instead learn that complete comprehension is required.

So we know that people remember things wrong after hearing things wrong after hearing only a part of it.

That's three largely independent sources of error which leave the basic for inductive learning looking very shaky indeed, and leads (me, anyway) to the conclusion that:
* to fully hear something we have to know the meaning of each of the elements;
* to correctly hear something we have to know how the elements fit together;
* to correctly recall and reproduce something we must have the ability to independently produce such a sentence ourselves.

Now as you say, grammar instruction can leave you scrabbling around to recall the rules -- I've experienced that too -- but that's bad grammar instruction. I've succeeded to some extent despite bad grammar instruction, but that doesn't make it OK.

What I really don't agree with, though, is people who throw all explicit grammar teaching out the window simply on the grounds that the grammar instruction that they have encountered is bad. Babies and bathwater spring to mind.

Grammar can be taught in an effective manner without books, rules and tables, and if anyone doesn't believe me, they should check out Michel Thomas's French, Spanish, German and/or Italian courses. (The other languages weren't done by him and kind of miss the point.)

[Fionnlagh]

xxx

[Fionnlagh]

xxx

[Fionnlagh]

xxxxx

[Seonaidh]

They call this kind of thing inductive learning. The idea is that the student internally logically "inducts" structure for a comparison of input.

Sin e, sin ciamar a tha sinn nas fheàrr na coimpiutairean: 's e "pattern spotting". Tha thu ceàrr, ceàrr, ceàrr mura gabh thu gur e slighe mhath airson ionnsachadh a th' innte. Tha clann Shasainn ag ràdh rudan mar "thowed", "knowed", "thinked" is eile - "pattern spotting" - cho nàdarra dhuinne. Bidh clann na Gaidhealtachd ag ràdh rudan mar "nuair a dh'fhaiceas mi" an àite "nuair a chì mi", tha mi a' creidsinn. Dyfal donc a dorr y garreg (sin tha mi ag iarraidh ràdh - ach chan eil fios agam air ciamar a chanas sin sa Ghàidhlig no sa Bheurla. Rudeigin coltach ri "Obair fhurachail a bhriseas a' charraig").

Surely, anyone who wishes to set up a total Gaelic learning environment would not expect to take in other courses to the centre when they use even the smallest level of English in their teaching methodologies.

Dè mu dheidhinn a' Chuimris? No cànan sam bith eile. Can eil cànan san t-saoghal a bheil nan aonar. Tha oileanaich sna clasaichean agam ('s e coimpiutaireachd a th'ann - tron Bheurla) a bhruidhneas ri cèile sa Shinhalais, Sìonais, Spainnis...agus tha òraidichean far a dh'oibreas mi fhìn a chleachdachas beagan facail is seantansan sna cànanan sin. Ceart gu leòr. Tha e cho fuadain feuchainn toirmisgeadh, m.e., Beurla nach bi an deuchainn na h-obair.