Coimhearsnacdh Ghàidlig ùr? Coinneamh fhiosrachaidh

neoni · Unread post by **neoni** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:32 am

Fionnlagh wrote:Sorry, about all the mistakes, I only see them once they are up on the thread or whatever it is called and then are too late to correct.

put air atharraich/edit agus 's urrainn dhut an atharrachadh

Unread post by **Gràisg** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:01 am

Sgrìobh Fionnlagh:
Bu mhiann leam innse dhuibh gum bi Till a toiseachadh a' togail airgiod as a Bhliadhn' Uire airson Aonad sonraichte chur air chois far am bi cursaichean TIP lan thide dh' an deanamh. ....

Sgrìobh Niall
Now this could be a major stumbling block.

There are many Gaelic teachers in Scotland teaching in many different ways -- surely the unit should be open to all of them?

Uill a chàirdean feumaidh mi innse dhuibh gu bheil cruaidh, cruaidh fheum air a leithid aonaid ann an sgìre Inbhir Nis. ’S e cùis-nàire a th’ ann nach eil foghlam làn-thìde ri fhaighinn tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig aig ìre inbheach bhon a fhuair Colaisde Inbhir Nis cuidhteas den chùrsa chomais! Agus dhomhsa cha do rinn na buidhnean Gàidhlig gearain gu leòr aig an àm a bha sin. ’S e sin ann am prìomh bhaile na Gàidhealtachd agus dachaidh oilthigh na Gàidhealtachd. Ciamar fon ghrèin a gheibh sinn adhartas sam bith gun a leithid aonaid ann an sgìre far a bheil taic fada ‘s farsaing don chanan? Abair thusa gur e f2 a th’ ann. Tha oifisean spaideil aig Bòrd na Gàidhlig, CNAG, Clì, msaa ach chan eil togalach ann far am faigh thu àrainneachd Gàidhlig fad an latha airson inbhich. Nach bu chòir do na buidhnean sin a bhith cruinn còmhla mu chuairt seòrsa ‘cultùrlann’ air choireigin far am faigheadh tu beagan còmhradh ‘s craic agus teagaisg agus biadh agus cofaidh? It surely isn’t beyond human endeavour is it?
No ‘s dòcha gu dearbh a tha an t-àm aig Till agus Fionnlagh air tighinn mura bheil na buidhnean oifigeach leis a’ phailteas airgid aca comasach no deònach sin a dhèanamh!

Unread post by **Níall Beag** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:49 am

Fionnlagh wrote:Niall Beag

Surely, anyone who wishes to set up a total Gaelic learning environment would not expect to take in other courses to the centre when they use even the smallest level of English in their teaching methodologies.

Do you suggest that we ask other teachers or tutors to refrain from using English on their courses to achieve the desired result.

One course being discussed is a TIP Student Information Meeting where we use English for a small number of hours to explain how TIP works, but we will need to organise another location in which to carry out this work so as not to infringe the total Gaelic environment.

Why does it make any difference to people what goes on in other classrooms, behind closed doors?

The complete 100% Gaelic environment is part of your course methodology and I would personally be against government funding or public appeals for funds to assist a single private company develop a monopoly, even if I believed that the company in question was the very best at what they do.

Furthermore, if the community scheme goes ahead, it would be the ideal opportunity to do an objective study of the relative effectiveness of the different methods of Gaelic instruction. One problem with most such studies is the differences in the learners' out-of-school environments -- the village would act as a fixed variable making the students' experiences much more directly comparable.

If TIP is given an absolute upper-hand such a study would be impossible, meaning you would never be able to prove its effectiveness to doubters like myself.

Unread post by **Tearlach61** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:42 pm

I would personally be against government funding or public appeals for funds to assist a single private company develop a monopoly, even if I believed that the company in question was the very best at what they do.

Uill a bhalaich, tha an fheallsanachd agad ro dhomhain dhomh-sa. Sa chiad a-dol=a-mach, mas e seo a stiùireas, 's mathaid gu bheil e ceart cho math stad a chur air a h-uile cosg airson na Gàidhlig. Cha leag thu leas aon sgillinn ruadh a chosd airson bàsachadh na Gàidhlig, tha i a' bàsachadh co-dhìu.

Chan eil mi a' tuigsinn dè a chuireadh ort a bhith cosg air iomairtean a dh' fhàilicheas seach orrasan a shoirbhicheas. Dhomh-sa, tha an t-eadar-dhealachadh eadar buidhnean poblach 's prìobhiteach caran breugach, oir aig a' cheann thall, air an cùl uile, tha luchd-obrach a tha a' faighinn buannachd as ann an seadh tuarastal. Domh-sa, bu chòir dhan tuarastal as fheàrr dhol dhan iomairt as gràsmhoire.

First, you and other students have a true "learning imperative" (as Finlay would put it) in that you have no choice but to learn to function in that language. However, when you go into a TIP class, you know full well that every other person in the room can speak English. If the learning imperative is the need to communicate an idea, not being able to express yourself because of artificial constraints is massively frustrating -- the Gaelic environment prevents you unnaturally from communicating, and many people resent that. It becomes a source of stress and gets in the way.

Mas ann gu bheil na h-oileanaich ann, chanainn-sa gur ann gu saor-thoileach a tha iad ann 's nach gabh iad dragh as. Nuair a thòisich mise a bhith ionnsachadh na Gàidhlig, tha fhios agam-sa le cinnt gun thaghainn suidheachadh immersion thairis air cùrsa Gàidhlig sam bith. Oir tha fhios agam-sa mar cho math sa tha e seo mar dòigh-ionnsachaidh 's cha chuir e dragh sam bith ormsa.

Agus mu gràmmair. Chan eil mi an aghaidh gràmmair mas ann gun teid a chleachdadh airson fuasgladh a thoirt dhan a chualas 's a leughas an toiseach 's stiùireadh air a chruthaichear an uair a rinneadh adhartas gu leòr. Ach 's e fìor mearachd a th' ann nuair thèid gràmmair a chleachdadh mar clàr neo cairt-iùil airson Beurla thionndadh gu Gàidhlig ann an inntinn nan luchd-toisichidh. An rud a nochdas as mar as trice, 's e Beurla le gleans Gàidhig.

Ach tha e furasta gu leòr seo a sheachnadh: a bhith mothachail 's faiceallach 's le bhith a' cleachdadh abairtean stèidhte a-mhàin an toiseach. Agus airson a bhith soilleir, le abairtean stèidhte, chan eil mi a' ciallachadh abairtean stèidhte gun tuigse.

Unread post by **GunChleoc** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:46 pm

Tha immersion agus bruidhinn glè chudromach, mar a tha a' ghràmair cuideachd. Dhomhsa co-dhiù. Carson a bhios tidsear agam muras urrainn dhomh ceistean a chur ris?

An rud a thèid a dhèanamh gu ceàrr gu tric ann an clasaichean "àbhisteach", 's e gu bheil cuideam ro làidir air an cuid gràmair, no air mìneachadh ann an dòigh ceàrr, no gu bheil an tidsear ag iarraidh gràmair ceart ro thrath. Bu chòir dhan conaltradh a bhith a' chiad amas is thig an gràmair beag air bheag.

Tha e glè chudromach nach cuir an cuid gràmair eagal air na h-oileanaich, ach tha agus cudromach gur urrainn dha na h-oileanaich an cuid gràmair a thuigsinn cuideachd.

Seo am each neo-shaidheansail agamsa

Seonaidh · Unread post by **Seonaidh** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:55 pm

Gràmar! Seo e:-

amo - amas - amat - amamus - amatis - amant
amicus - amice - amicum - amici - amici - amico -
- amici - amici - amicos - amicorum - amicis - amicis
rego - regis - regit - regimus - regitis - regunt
respublica respublica rempublicam reipublicae reipublicae republica -
- respublicae - respublicae - respublicas - rerumpublicarum - reispublicis - reispublicis

Dè sin? Uill, chan urrainn mi seantans a ràdh dhen chànan sin. Ach tha beagan fios agam air a' ghràmar. Dè thachair dhan Laideann? Bàsich.
Nas fheàrr dèanamh rudan cearr agus bruidhinn na dh'ionnsachadh gràmar an toiseach.

Unread post by **Gràisg** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:00 am

A bheil laideann cho marbh ri sgadan? Saoilidh mi nach e fait accompli a th' ann an siud. Tha fhathast modus operandi gus an cànan sin a chumail beò.
Seo na naidheachdan ann an Laideann:
http://www.yleradio1.fi/nuntii/

A -rèir coltais thuirt fear ris an canar G. K. Chesterton ' A language must die to become immortal' nuair a bha e a-mach air Laideann.

Nach ann mar sin a bhiodh e leis a' Ghàidhlig. Abair thusa gur e gnìomhachas a th' ann cheana leis a h-uile duine bruidhinn mu dheidhinn Gàidhlig tro mheadhann na Beurla. Fiù 's anns a' bhòrd bhràth seo gheibh thu pailteas beurla a' mìneachadh suideachadh na Gàidhlig ann an dòigh air choireigin. Saoil cho slàn falainn gu siorradh bràth a bhiodh an gnìomhachas sin nan robh Gàidhlig marbh buileach glan?

Cho fhad ‘s a tha mo rannsachadh bochd air loidhne ag innse dhomh b’ e amas aig Chesterton a bhith sealltainn dhuinn ged a bha beachd ann gur e cànan marbh a bh’ ann an Laideann bha e ann an dòigh os cionn a h-uile cànanan eile a bha ‘beò’. Dhàsan cha robh ceist mu dheidhinn cànan beò no cànan marbh, ‘s e cànan air uchd bàis a th’ anns a h-uile cànan, tha pìosan dheth a’ bàsachadh fad na h-ùine no bidh an seagh aca ag atharrachadh, agus chan eil dòigh as a sin idir agus feumaidh cànan bas fhaighinn gus a bhith beò gu siorraidh bràth.

Saoilidh mi gur e beachd inntinneach aig an duine sin, chan eil mòran ceangail eadar sin agus coimhearsnachd ùr tha fhios agam.

Unread post by **GunChleoc** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:06 pm

Seonaidh wrote:Gràmar! Seo e:-

amo - amas - amat - amamus - amatis - amant
amicus - amice - amicum - amici - amici - amico -
- amici - amici - amicos - amicorum - amicis - amicis
rego - regis - regit - regimus - regitis - regunt
respublica respublica rempublicam reipublicae reipublicae republica -
- respublicae - respublicae - respublicas - rerumpublicarum - reispublicis - reispublicis

Dè sin? Uill, chan urrainn mi seantans a ràdh dhen chànan sin. Ach tha beagan fios agam air a' ghràmar. Dè thachair dhan Laideann? Bàsich.
Nas fheàrr dèanamh rudan cearr agus bruidhinn na dh'ionnsachadh gràmar an toiseach.

Chan e gràmar na Laideann a th' ann seo seach droch dhòigh a leithid ionnsachadh. Uill, 's e droch dhòigh a th' ann co-dhiù mura dèanar rudan eile cuideachd, mar conaltradh. 'S ann mar sin a bha clasaichean Laidinn agam co-dhiù is cha bu toil leam iad idir, idir. Dh' ionnsaich iad an cànan dhomh dìreach mar cànan marbh, ach 's e na clasaichean fhèin nach robh beò.

Cleachdaidh mi rudan mar sin airson mo chuid Ghàidhlig a thogail, ach cha do chuir mi liosta sam bith nam chuimhne, ach bheir mi sùil air lìosta nuair a shireas mi am facal ceart. Bidh sin ag obrachadh glè mhath nuair a bhios mi a' sgrìobhadh air loidhne, ach bidh na facail a dhìth ort nuair a bhios tu a' bruidhinn. Dh' ionnsaich mi na facail beag air bheag co-dhiù, ach tha incomplete paradigms agam fhathast. Thig iad nuair a thigeas iad.

Bha an suidheachadh eadar-dhealaichte nuair a thòisich mi air Portagailis ionnsachadh. Cha do thòisich mi aig an aon àm na thòisich na h-oileanaich eile, agus bha agam ri leasan gu lèir a dhèanamh gach latha fad dà sheachdainn. Abair laithean saora trang a bh' agam! Rinn mi leabhar beag le faclan is lìostaichean airson an cur nam chuimhne aig an àm sin agus b' i dòigh glè eifeachdadh a bh' innte dhomh aig an àm siud. Bidh an suidheachadh eadar-dhealaichte co-dhiù ma chuireas tu lìostaichean mar sin nad chuimhne gun an cleachdadh an uair sin cho luath is cho tric sa ghabhas - boring, boooooring.

Tha tuigsinn an dòigh ciamar a bhios an cànan ag obrachadh glè, glè chudromach dhomhsa co-chiù. Nuair a thuigeas mi rudeigin, cha bhi feum agam air a chur nam chuimhne.

neoni · Unread post by **neoni** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:07 pm

haha bha mise ag èisteachd ri YLE dìreach nuair a dh'fhosgail mi an sreath seo, abair saoghal bheag a th' againn

Unread post by **Tearlach61** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:24 pm

Tha cuimhne 'am nuair a ghabh mi cùrsa Gàidhlig (air a chuir air dòigh le Colaiste na Gàidhlig à Alba Nuadh) a mhair fad seachdainn. Bha duine ann 's b' aithne dha glè mhath air clàran-gràmmair na Gàidhlig, fada na b' fheàrr na b' aithne dhomhsa co-dhiù. Ach 's e obair mhòr a bh' ann dha fiù 's seantans simplìdh a chur ri chèile.

Fionnlagh · Unread post by **Fionnlagh** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:18 pm

Unread post by **Níall Beag** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:30 pm

Seonaidh wrote:Gràmar! Seo e:-

amo - amas - amat - amamus - amatis - amant
amicus - amice - amicum - amici - amici - amico -
- amici - amici - amicos - amicorum - amicis - amicis
rego - regis - regit - regimus - regitis - regunt
respublica respublica rempublicam reipublicae reipublicae republica -
- respublicae - respublicae - respublicas - rerumpublicarum - reispublicis - reispublicis

That is not grammar -- that's what Chuck was referring to when he said:

Tearlach61 wrote:Ach 's e fìor mearachd a th' ann nuair thèid gràmmair a chleachdadh mar clàr neo cairt-iùil

It's a grammar table -- clàr -- and tables are a poor substitute for proper teaching.

A grammar table is a "picture" -- a "diagram" even -- of grammar, and are at their most useful (as GunChleoc says) as an aide-memoire or to help fill in little gaps in your learning.

(EG: I know agam, agad, aig, againn and agaibh from learning them and using them, not from memorising tables, but I still get confused between aige and aca and while I've stopped consulting a physical table, I still find myself having to consciously choose.)

So what is grammar? It's a series of rules, and memorising the rules is no more use to a language learner than learning the theory of skiing without ever strapping yourself onto two planks of wood and tumbling down a hillside.

When I learned to ski I didn't learn to recite the procedure for snow-ploughs and parallel turns, but neither did I blindly imitate the movements of my instructors. They both demonstrated and explained, and when one of my teachers shouted "weight!!!" at me from the other side of the slope, I knew what I was doing wrong and leaned forward.

Grammar is things like hearing a question like A bheil thu deiseil?
and knowing the answer is either tha or chan eil, and also knowing that the answer to Am bidh thu deiseil is not the same.

Grammar is being able to hear "tha mi deiseil" and being able to say "thuirt e gun robh e deiseil".

These simple ones can be taught "immersively", but it can be a laborious process, particularly where the concept is as alien as "no yes or no" or when the form changes as much as "tha"->"gu bheil"; but what about the "only-one-genitive" and "double-definitive-article" rules? (Actually, I consider them to be essentially the same rule, but that's just me).

As far as I'm concerned, the DDA can be adequately explained in English, but I cannot imagine trying to work it out for myself -- it's too easy to make a false assumption and head off down a dead end.

In the last week I have managed to achieve a pretty advanced conversational mastery of Italian by spending a week in a chalet with a bunch of native speakers.
Now for my school lessons I remembered the masculine Italian definite article as "il". In Spanish, it's "el", but there's an additional form "lo" which is best translated as "the one" -- "lo verde" = "the green one"; "quiero lo que ella tiene" = "I-want the-one that she has". I noticed some of the guys saying "lo" in Italian too, and in these cases they were using it with an adjective, so I assumed for several days that it was the same as the Spanish "lo". I got corrected on this a few times, but I couldn't work out for the life of me what I was doing wrong -- until I opened a grammar book and looked up the definite article. The difference between "il" and "lo" is simply a matter of what letter(s) the next word starts with, just like with the Gaelic article! I was better equipped than most learners to work it out, but even then it took conscious study for me to get it right.

But more importantly, gramar is being able to build an entirely independent sentence if you want to, so that you don't have to reply to "Ciamar a tha thu?" with "Tha mi ...", but instead you can say "Och, thuit mi air an eigh a-raoir agus tha cas goirt orm fhathast".

Tearlach61 wrote:
If the learning imperative is the need to communicate an idea, not being able to express yourself because of artificial constraints is massively frustrating -- the Gaelic environment prevents you unnaturally from communicating, and many people resent that. It becomes a source of stress and gets in the way.
Mas ann gu bheil na h-oileanaich ann, chanainn-sa gur ann gu saor-thoileach a tha iad ann 's nach gabh iad dragh as.

Sorry, I can't go along with that.

I've seen many people go into many different types of learning experiences "voluntarily" and become frustrated by them -- there's certainly a massive difference between wanting something and thinking you want it. There are certain things we have conscious control over and certain things that we don't. Very few of us can consciously stifle boredom and/or frustration, whether we want to or not.

Put it this way: everyone who signs up for a language course wants to learn the language but a scary percentage drop out before the course is finished. I hear teachers and other students say that these drop-outs weren't committed or serious about it -- well two-hundred quid on the table says they were serious. When the brain is not motivated to process the input, the class has failed the student -- the student has not failed the class.

Seonaidh · Unread post by **Seonaidh** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:24 pm

Don't you know that it diff'rent for Welsh?

Ann am facail eile, seadh, 's dòcha gu bheil e doirbh airson bruidhneadair de Bheurla eòlas fhaighinn air "Yes/No" sa Ghàidhlig, ach chan eil e doirbh airson bruidhneadair de Chuimris. Tha rudan eile gu leòr a tha doirbh airson Cuimreach ('s e "làmh ghoirid" an seo), m.e. an diofar eadar far a bheil thu a' cleachdadh sèimheachadh san dà chànan.

Is doinidh leam a bhith a' faicinn a h-uile stuth ionnsachaidh Gàidhlig sa Bheurla. Ach s' fheàrr sin leis a' chuid mhòr dhen mhuinntir a bhith ag iarraidh Gàidhlig ionnsachadh, tha mi a' creidsinn. Dè feumas sinn a dhèanamh?

Unread post by **Níall Beag** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:41 pm

Seonaidh wrote:Don't you know that it diff'rent for Welsh?

Yup, but that only adds to the point I was making: different people notice different things, and we can't control noticing -- however, if we explain....

Unread post by **Tearlach61** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:04 am

"Is doinidh leam a bhith a' faicinn a h-uile stuth ionnsachaidh Gàidhlig sa Bheurla."

Oh, oh, oh, don't get me started! 'eil fhios 'ad, chan eil ciall sam bith anns a' Ghàidhlig as aonais na Beurla. Mura a robh Dwelly's 's Colin Mark 's a h-uile mìneachadh fon ghrèin mar a tha Gàidhlig ag obair ANNS A' BHEURLA cha dheanadh duine sam bith bun neo bàrr dhith.

Ceist: a bheil an Oxford san Fhraingis neo ann am Beurla? A bheil am Petit Robert ann am Beurla neo ann am Fraingis? Carson nach eil faclair Gàidhlig (nach eile do chloinn co-dhiù) ri fhaighinn le mìneachadh anns a' Ghàidhlig?

Coimhearsnacdh Ghàidlig ùr? Coinneamh fhiosrachaidh

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