Fòram na Gàidhlig

I'm working of a Beurla-gu-Gàidhlig tr*nsl*t**n practice and I'm stuck on this phrase:

"Who are you to question me?"

I can't find any references to an idiom using "Cò thu/sibh" used to express this sort of sentiment but I did find this phrase at Am Faclair Beag, "Dè an duine thusa?" for "Who do you think you are?"

Would something like "Dè an duine thusa ri dèanamh sgrùdadh orm?" work? Any better ideas?

I have a sneaking suspicion that doesn't work as an idiom in Gaelic. The closest I can think of which doesn't sound too English would be something like

Dè an t-ùghdaras a th' agad a bhith 'gam cheasnachadh?
Dè cead a th' agad...

or by turning it around

Nach ann ort-sa tha aghaidh a bhith 'gam cheasnachadh!
(i.e. aren't you full of cheek to be questioning me)

Literally you'd put it as
Cò thusa bhith 'gam cheasnachadh?
but I don't think that carries the same force in Gaelic though.

akerbeltz wrote:I have a sneaking suspicion that doesn't work as an idiom in Gaelic. The closest I can think of which doesn't sound too English would be something like

Dè an t-ùghdaras a th' agad a bhith 'gam cheasnachadh?
Dè cead a th' agad...

That first one might work. "Cead" to me is not as strong as "ughdarras". In the context of the story, the speaker is a god who is being criticized by one of his creations. So it has that sense of strong, unequivocal authority.

or by turning it around

Nach ann ort-sa tha aghaidh a bhith 'gam cheasnachadh!
(i.e. aren't you full of cheek to be questioning me)

That seems more sarcastic than indigent to me.

Literally you'd put it as
Cò thusa bhith 'gam cheasnachadh?
but I don't think that carries the same force in Gaelic though.

No, I don't think so either. And I'm trying to avoid translations that are too faithful to the English at the expense of the Gaelic. I've been racking my brain for a reference of something like this in the stories I've read so far, but I can't think of one. My AGA course has ended for the year, but I might try emailing my AGA teacher who's fairly well-read in older Gaelic literature and see if he has any ideas.

Co-dhiù, mòran taing airson do chuidheachadh!

I would put this:

"Dè math dhutsa a bhith gam cheasnachadh."

In the context of the story, the speaker is a god who is being criticized by one of his creations. So it has that sense of strong, unequivocal authority.

Ah the context

In this case you could also put it as "cò th' annad a bhith 'gam cheasnachadh?"

Wouldn't smiting be easier? I always thought that's where the concept of gods falls over anyway. Either they want backtalking, annoying, sarcastic mortals in which case stop interfering or if they don't have control over that, then what use are they in the first place!

akerbeltz wrote:

In the context of the story, the speaker is a god who is being criticized by one of his creations. So it has that sense of strong, unequivocal authority.

Ah the context

In this case you could also put it as "cò th' annad a bhith 'gam cheasnachadh?"

I think I like that one myself. I like the "Dé an t-ughtarras a th' agad" construction but it seems bit much for the context. I think I'll go with "Cò th' annad" provided I don't stumble across something better.

Wouldn't smiting be easier? I always thought that's where the concept of gods falls over anyway. Either they want backtalking, annoying, sarcastic mortals in which case stop interfering or if they don't have control over that, then what use are they in the first place!

Yeah, well, you're talking to someone who has a background in theology, philosophy and the like. Myths, and the gods they portray, are always defined by the psychology of the people who wrote them and for whom they were written. For much of human history, humans haven't been looking for a god that's rationally and logically consistent because they themselves aren't nor do they live a rationally/logically consistent world. They just want something to make that reality less overwhelming. The idea of a prefect being is actually very intimidating and in some cases may seem cruel to human psychology (the old "if God is all-powerful, why do bad things happen to good people?" dilemma). Humans tend to prefer flawed, fallible gods--even the supposedly prefect God of the Abrahamic faiths is portrayed in many myths as flawed, fickle and irrational. It's easier for our psychology to grasp a flawed god than a genuinely prefect one. Besides, it makes the stories more entertaining.

An Gobaire wrote:I would put this:

"Dè math dhutsa a bhith gam cheasnachadh."

Interesting. I'll keep this in mind, but I think there's some nuance here I'm not grasping.

That's the thing....

Just because there is an equivalent expression in one language for an equivalent expression in another, that doesn't mean that they would both be used in the same situations.

Mine obviously is not equivalent but the "Dè math dhut..." expression means "What's the use for you ...". In the Runrig song, "Màiri", they ask: "Dè math an tobair gun an t-uisge" = (what's the use of a well without water)

So I should probably have said "Dè math thusa a bhith gam cheasnachadh.." (But gam cheasnachadh is not really the meaning of the English here....) however, I accept it's not quite right in terms of formality and meaning to how you want the character to come across.

But of course tone of voice is everything, as the English expression "Who are you to...." does not literally mean anything disparaging, UNLESS it's said in a disparaging tone of voice.

Having said that.. to question what someone says in Gaelic is often expressed with "Cuir ceist ann an + thing said" as opposed to "Cuir ceist air" which means "ask a question of + somebody." and does not express "doubt".

So having said all that.. it appears you want the character to "sound" English but in Gaelic, if you didn't you would problably prefer an expression which literally conveys disparagement rather than using an English idiom which relies on tone of voice to get that across.

Something like: "''S suarach agams' thu ged a chuireas tu ceist/teagamh nam fhaclan." would be far more literal.

Or, "'Cha diù leams' thusa a bhith cur ceist nam fhacal/fhaclan." which literally tells him to his face that he "ain't worth shit" to him.

I see. So some of our best and most experienced linguists have been tied up with tronsloting a wee bit of trite sci-fi. Ceid, bow your head in shame.

Agus sin carson nach toil leinn obair mar seo a dhèanamh tric.

lol... tied up in knots definitely.

Ach bha an còmhradh inntinneach co-dhiù

Seonaidh wrote:I see. So some of our best and most experienced linguists have been tied up with tronsloting a wee bit of trite sci-fi. Ceid, bow your head in shame.

Agus sin carson nach toil leinn obair mar seo a dhèanamh tric.

Agus sin carson nach tèid mi gu 'n fòram seo tric. You have no right to talk to me like that.

And tell me, how are people suppose learn this language, if they are not allowed to ask questions like this? This is a forum for learning Gaelic, is it not? Maybe you should ask GunChleoc for admin privileges so you can just delete the questions you think aren't worth this forum's time. It'd certainly be more polite than sneering down at people like this.

All can I say without completely releasing my very, very Scottish temper on you is, I am so very grateful for the Gaelic speakers in Cape Breton and with the AGA, because they would never talk to learners like this. And don't worry, if I have any further difficulties with this "trite" exercise, I will be sure to wait until I have the opportunity to ask one of them rather than coming here.

An Gobaire wrote:lol... tied up in knots definitely.

My apologies for wasting your time.

So having said all that.. it appears you want the character to "sound" English but in Gaelic, if you didn't you would problably prefer an expression which literally conveys disparagement rather than using an English idiom which relies on tone of voice to get that across.

I appreciate the information you provided, but I think you misunderstand my intentions. This is a short story written in English by a well-known author. I'm doing this as part of a challenge on another forum to tr*nsl*t* this story into different languages for practice, and not surprisingly, there's not anyone at that forum who can really help me with Gaelic at this level. And since my AGA class is out for the summer, I thought I'd come here when I ran into trouble (which was a mistake, I realize now).

I am aware that, as my first advanced level effort at an eadar-theangachadh bho-Bheurla-gu-Gàidhlig mar seo, I will fall woefully short of authentic Gaelic. But that's in part why I'm doing this, so I can become more aware of the differences between English and Gaelic. That's what I would like help with. I need someone who can say, "We don't really say that in Gaelic--we would probably say something like..." because I would like to speak and write more authentic Gaelic than I am at this stage.

But all the same, I don't need people assuming I'm this stupid or lazy in regards to learning Gaelic or to say I just want to think in English while using Gaelic words. As far as I can tell, you made this assumption about me simply because I asked a question and acknowledged my ignorance. And it's hard not to be insulted by that, you know?

Thanks for your help, nonetheless. I learned some better Gaelic, and that's all I wanted.

I guess Seonaidh mixed up people who will ask for translations and sometimes even demand an answer as if it was their right to get a freebie, from learners like you whom we'll gladly help! Forums have gone down in the past under a flood of tr*nsl*t**n requests for tatoos and stuff like that, because you couldn't find the real conversations among them, so people tend to be thin skinned about the subject. Please don't be put off asking questions, this is what this forum is meant for, after all.

As I said, I found this discussion very interesting, since it is a difficult sentence and over my head as well. An Gobaire was genuinely trying to help, and just commenting on the difficulty of the sentence. You definitely did not waste his time

An Gobaire sgrìobh:lol... tied up in knots definitely.

My apologies for wasting your time.

Ceid, you appear to have misunderstood my comment. I simply meant that I was tieing myself up in knots trying to find a satisfactory tr*nsl*t**n. One that satisfied myself in particular. I find it to be a useful exercise, and in no way thought of it as a waste of time.

You also appear to have missed the irony of Seonaidh's comment. I took it to mean that he was being humorous...as I in no way consider myself to be part of the "some of the best and experienced linguists"..!

As regards your other comment about my "sound English" comment...well I think that's being a bit oversensitive as I wasn't trying to put you down in any way, shape or form. If you tr*nsl*t* most English idioms into Gaelic literally...well they "sound English" in Gaelic!!