Fòram na Gàidhlig

Yes, ANOTHER ONE lol.

Hello everyone, this is my first ever post. I want to give you a short intro as to what my situation is. I am learning Gàidhlig on my own right now. I am a rank beginner and have literally just picked it up. I learn fast and this isn't my first experience thinking in terms of another language.I just emigrated from Scotland to the states 6 months ago and my biggest regret is not doing this years ago. I am only 24.

So onto my question(s). With pronunciation, from what I see, it seems that to much concentration on diphthongs and vowels in particular is sort of a waste of time, consonants not so much. Knowing the general rules and following the important stuff accurately of course, BUT, from the a pronunciation stand point, pointless. From a reading stand point I can copy out and repeat "ea" a million times but the difference between the "ea" in caileag, each and beag when pronounced is obvious. To my ear caluk, really hearing that e and a make a ya for each and then just plain e as in pet for beag and finally leabhar, to me, "leyor" nothing like the alphabetic study sheets (I'm also aware English doesn't have the best comparison).

What i'm simply stating... asking, and hoping for some advice and closure on is; that if from a reading perspective I saw any of these words for the first time (and countless others) I wouldn't be able to pronounce them without hearing them spoken. Making prolonged study on sounds actually more confusing after a while. Rather than being aware of the nature of the sound, and using audio to learn as much vocab as possible. Is this true??

Also, while i'm here, I sometimes feel when reading words that certain diphthongs are present in order to keep an "i" or an "e" away from a consonant like s, certain pronunciation would work the same if those words were spelled without an "o" or "a" but there presence prevents the change in consonant is this ture?

Well, it's always difficult to get to grips with ways of spelling in Language X if your previous grounding has been almost exclusively with Language Y. Think about Language Y for a bit, and consider the immense difficulty it poses to those with nothing much but a prior grounding in Language Z - say, Spanish. To one familiar only with Spanish spelling, how would such words as "tough", "trough", "though", "through" or "thought" appear? There is an unfamiliar diphthong, which sometimes seems to do nothing but alter the preceding vowel cluster (also an unfamiliar one) and then not always in the same way, while sometimes it's actually pronounced as a consonant (usually "f"). Now, what advice on pronunciation etc. would you give to somebody in such a situation when faced with English?

Gaelic is not a perfectly "logical" language in the way things are spelt. But, your observations notwithstanding, it does tend to be significantly more so than, say, English. Thus, once you know the general rules linking spelling with pronunciation, the odds are that, when you see a Gaelic word for the first time, you're far more likely to pronounce it more-or-less correctly (and certainly understandably) than a learner of English faced with a similar task. Or, perhaps, don't worry about it unduly.

I've not purchased it (yet) but from the sample pages on Amazon, this book might be up your alley:

Blas Na Gaidhlig - The Practical Guide to Scottish Gaelic Pronunciation by Michael Bauer

Take heart -- the vowels do start to become predictable with experience.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're saying. First off, are you talking about figuring how to get from a written word to the sound when you're suggesting that might be a waste of time? Or are you talking about figuring out how to make the right sound in the first place, regardless of how you write it?

Anyway, neither is a waste of time - learning a language isn't like learning how to drive where you can choose to never go on the motorway. You can't avoid the sounds of a language that way. So if your ultimate goal is being able to speak with other fluent and native speakers, then you need to tackle the sounds. Consonants and vowels. Otherwise you'll ultimately only ever understand yourself If your goal is to ultimately only ever be able to read and write it, and there are some people who are indeed aiming for that, then yes, you can ignore the sounds.

In terms of degrees of difficulty, yes, there are only a few vowels which are tricky to learn (assuming you got the idea of long vs short). Just a minor word of warning - what your ears hear may not be what the natives are saying. The vowels in the words you gave caileag is /kalag/, each is /ɛx/ or /jax/ but beag is /beg/ not */bɛg/. Leabhar again isn't as odd as it looks, it just involves a more complex rule about vowels before bh. Not sure what you mean with "alphabetic sheets" - if that refers to some kind of phake foneticks, then by all means go and burn them, they're counterproductive.

that if from a reading perspective I saw any of these words for the first time (and countless others) I wouldn't be able to pronounce them without hearing them spoken.

That's actually very wrong. Once you understand the rules behind the system, there are very few words in Gaelic which don't have totally predictable pronunciation. Very unlike English. Using audio is of course a good tool but very few people manage to learn good Gaelic only by listening. As adults, hardly any of us are still capable of just learning new sounds by ear like a baby can.

I think you're possibly just at the stage where you've realised that the way English indicates pronunciation and the way Gaelic does it are totally different. Not surprising really as the roots of the way Gaelic is written predate English by several centuries. My advice would be to try and drop any expectations of Gaelic orthography working anything like English and to just accept Gaelic on its own terms. If you want something that helps you to understand how Gaelic does "things", try this sheet which you can also print off.

akerbeltz wrote:I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're saying. First off, are you talking about figuring how to get from a written word to the sound when you're suggesting that might be a waste of time? Or are you talking about figuring out how to make the right sound in the first place, regardless of how you write it?

Anyway, neither is a waste of time - learning a language isn't like learning how to drive where you can choose to never go on the motorway. You can't avoid the sounds of a language that way. So if your ultimate goal is being able to speak with other fluent and native speakers, then you need to tackle the sounds. Consonants and vowels. Otherwise you'll ultimately only ever understand yourself If your goal is to ultimately only ever be able to read and write it, and there are some people who are indeed aiming for that, then yes, you can ignore the sounds.

In terms of degrees of difficulty, yes, there are only a few vowels which are tricky to learn (assuming you got the idea of long vs short). Just a minor word of warning - what your ears hear may not be what the natives are saying. The vowels in the words you gave caileag is /kalag/, each is /ɛx/ or /jax/ but beag is /beg/ not */bɛg/. Leabhar again isn't as odd as it looks, it just involves a more complex rule about vowels before bh. Not sure what you mean with "alphabetic sheets" - if that refers to some kind of phake foneticks, then by all means go and burn them, they're counterproductive.

that if from a reading perspective I saw any of these words for the first time (and countless others) I wouldn't be able to pronounce them without hearing them spoken.

That's actually very wrong. Once you understand the rules behind the system, there are very few words in Gaelic which don't have totally predictable pronunciation. Very unlike English. Using audio is of course a good tool but very few people manage to learn good Gaelic only by listening. As adults, hardly any of us are still capable of just learning new sounds by ear like a baby can.

I think you're possibly just at the stage where you've realised that the way English indicates pronunciation and the way Gaelic does it are totally different. Not surprising really as the roots of the way Gaelic is written predate English by several centuries. My advice would be to try and drop any expectations of Gaelic orthography working anything like English and to just accept Gaelic on its own terms. If you want something that helps you to understand how Gaelic does "things", try this sheet which you can also print off.

*sigh* I understand. My point was a simple one but "pointless" might have been to harsh a word. I have no trouble accepting Gaelic as it's own independent organism, I don't tie it to English in the least. I simply meant that, for me it feels like I'm getting no where when it comes to reading or being able to anticipate a pronunciation of a word I have only seen written no matter how much I go over the sounds. I can physically make the sounds, it's not perfect but I'll get better at that. If Gaelic truly has predictable spelling system that can be pronounced and read then I obviously don't know enough about that system. For me it seemed like it wasn't there, so concentrating on all these rules were detrimental to learning a word or two. Basically I've learned all these sounds, now I don't know which to use > square 1 again.

When I first started learning, I used www.akerbeltz.org to learn about the rules, and songs to practice the sounds. If you like Runrig, get the Gaelic Collection and then the words from here.

I went through it slowly, sound by sound group to practice them. I didn't find any rules for the vowels that I could easily memorise, but if you need to figure out a word, the Guide that Akerbeltz posted is your ticket. I can also recommend Blas na Gàidhlig

On how the orthographic system is organised, look here.

Perhaps, to be more practical then, if you post some words which to your mind defy the rules, I'll gladly analyse them for everyone's enjoyment

I'll do that with the one's you posted to begin with:

caileag
initial broad c » /k/
ai in stressed syllable not before /h/ or /x/ » /a/
non-initial single slender l » /l/
eag is a special diminutive ending » /ag/

each
ea before /x/ » /ɛ/ (in some areas it's /ja/ but /ɛ/ makes for a cleaners system for learners)
broad ch » /x/

beag
slender initial b - choice is either /b/ or /bj/ but because it's followed by a front vowel » /b/
ea in stressed syllable followed by s/d/g » /e/
broad g » /g/

leabhar
Ah nice one
initial slender l without anything in front causing lenition » /Lʲ/
ea before bh » /ɔ/
bh between vowels » /./
unstressed a » /ə/ (chances are it's /ə/, could also be /a/ but statistically, that's much rarer)
non-initial single broad r » /r/

As a rule of thumb, when it comes to vowels, they key question is if it's in a stressed (usually the first) or unstressed (elsewhere) syllable. Unstressed vowels are boring for the most part. For both consonants and vowels, sounds which precede or follow can have a big impact on pronunciation - which is a concept which also occurs in English (cf sit ~ site)

My tip is to look at lenition as a system, not simply a set of other letters.

Lenition is the process of B going to BH, M->MH etc.

BH is not "V", BH is not "W", but it's a weakened, softened, lazy B. How much it's weakened depends on the sounds round about it. Sometimes it is weakened enough to sound like a V. Sometimes like a W. And sometimes, it's so weak that you barely notice it's there (eg leabhar).

akerbeltz wrote:Perhaps, to be more practical then, if you post some words which to your mind defy the rules, I'll gladly analyse them for everyone's enjoyment

I'll do that with the one's you posted to begin with:

caileag
initial broad c » /k/
ai in stressed syllable not before /h/ or /x/ » /a/
non-initial single slender l » /l/
eag is a special diminutive ending » /ag/

each
ea before /x/ » /ɛ/ (in some areas it's /ja/ but /ɛ/ makes for a cleaners system for learners)
broad ch » /x/

beag
slender initial b - choice is either /b/ or /bj/ but because it's followed by a front vowel » /b/
ea in stressed syllable followed by s/d/g » /e/
broad g » /g/

leabhar
Ah nice one
initial slender l without anything in front causing lenition » /Lʲ/
ea before bh » /ɔ/
bh between vowels » /./
unstressed a » /ə/ (chances are it's /ə/, could also be /a/ but statistically, that's much rarer)
non-initial single broad r » /r/

As a rule of thumb, when it comes to vowels, they key question is if it's in a stressed (usually the first) or unstressed (elsewhere) syllable. Unstressed vowels are boring for the most part. For both consonants and vowels, sounds which precede or follow can have a big impact on pronunciation - which is a concept which also occurs in English (cf sit ~ site)

Well while this is extremely helpful and I know I need to spend more time on the IPA, from what I've seen not a lot of sites use it. And again, the same issue for me seems to arise, 1 symbol, 2 or more pronunciations, seemingly at random. I seem to be drowning in a whirlpool of knowledge. While your linguistic skills are something to be admired, as a rank beginner I can't even pretend to understand half of it. I'm a computer scientist not a linguist. I know this will take the right materials an open mind and a whole lot of time. I need to calm down I think. I've been approaching this with a lot of emotion I can't explain that might seem silly... this feels like some sort of birth right. I just left home as well, and I miss it.

Being able to analyze a word like that would be a fantastic skill to possess, in my beginners mind of wanting too much too soon, I feel like the tr*nsl*t**n from page, practice to use of "I can break down this word and pronounce it" versus "I can subconsciously call upon the entire pronunciation of the word" have a practical order of presidence in being able to use it straight away that I might need to sacrifice.

Any tips on the IPA? Or how to understand it better? I am getting blas na gaidhlig btw. Next pay check lol.

You're welcome Yes, you're right, too many sites use phake foneticks but it's getting a bit better. In terms of getting a handle on the bits of IPA you need for Gaelic, Blas na Gàidhlig is a good start, alongside the Faclair Beag and Goireasan Akerbeltz. You actually only need a very small number of symbols.

I do appreciate the fact that when you start it's all a whirlwind of stuff ... I don't often get total beginners but when I do, for that reason, I only use IPA for quite some time to avoid most of those headaches.

Anyway, if you're a computer scientist, then those rules in the Guide should appeal to you

Yep, think of the Guide as an algorithm

Of course you won't be able to memorise it, but it will help you find out about a word if you're in doubt.

You can listen to the sounds in the "Fuaimean" section of the Akerbeltz. It's got the orthography side by side with the symbols, and you can listen to the sounds. There is a bit of explanation on the IPA in the Beagan Gràmair section, as well as explanations on how the sound system works.

I understand how you feel! Keep that energy going to get some work done, but allow yourself the time you need to learn. For starters, stick to the sites listed in "Goireasan" on our home page. There is sadly a lot of really bad sites out there, especially those who just list a few phrases. Some even mix Gaelic with Irish and are fukll of mistakes.

fukll of mistakes

Huch aye

Thank you,

Thank you, thank you. I appreciate the feedback, and I like Faclair Beag, it used the IPA =D. I will slow down, get a better handle on the sound system. Physical pronunciation isn't to much of a bother for me I have a good ear for sound (musical back ground). So lets see if I can marry the two!

ʃɛ də vɛhə! ha mi ɛrʲ Lʲe tɔlɪçdʲə xLɯiNʲdʲɪNʲ gə vel əN IPA sə NaxgLɛrʲ veg gə feːm ɣuhd.

agəs ha faːldʲə rɔ çeʃdʲən ana hjɔ uəRsəm bi mar ə ha fis.

akerbeltz wrote:ʃɛ də vɛhə! ha mi ɛrʲ Lʲe tɔlɪçdʲə xLɯiNʲdʲɪNʲ gə vel əN IPA sə NaxgLɛrʲ veg gə feːm ɣuhd.

agəs ha faːldʲə rɔ çeʃdʲən ana hjɔ uəRsəm bi mar ə ha fis.

This.