The things I can't explain, so far

[jasonleitch]

I should warm you that I will probably be posting a lot . Some questions and some clarifications:

in this example a' chaileag bheag sin the adj is lenited because it is describing the noun which is feminine. Which I get and like. However:

In such things as: Bha a' ghrian blàth anns a' mhadainn that I can't explain, grian is a feminie noun and blàth is clearly describing it and remains unlenited... My point is

If I were asked to say it off the top of my head I would have said aloud Bha a' ghrian bhlàth anns a' mhadainn which is a problem, because it's wrong. I'd have assumed it was a typo if Tha an nighean ris an uinneag oir tha a' ghrian blàth hadn't shown up doing the same thing! But here Bha slat fhada ùr ann anns a' bhùth (believe he's talking about a fishing rod) fada is doing the same job blàth is doing but is lenited.... unless it's because grian is already lenited, hm but that's pure conjecture on my part.

Secondly, I notice the definite article is used differently in gaidhlig than in english, it appears in sentences where it's not really saying "the" in the tr*nsl*t**n. Such as Tha a' Ghàidhlig glè inntinneach, nach eil? wondering in situations like that what's it's purpose so I can use it better


Also something I want to clarify, for http://taic.me.uk/leasan5.htm while being taught about preposition you can clearly see that it's laid out to say:

for some
preposition + noun = lenition
preposition + n + noun = no lenition i.e.

fo
fo thruinnsear
fon truinnsear

dha / do
dha taigh / do thaigh
dhan taigh / don taigh

So for examples like Tha an litir seo dhan chailleach or Tha a' chaora dhubh glè theth fon ghrian that seemingly contradicts the previous lesson, it's because cailleach and grian are feminine and they lenite usually with the article a' right?

[akerbeltz]

Bha a' ghrian blàth anns a' mhadainn that I can't explain

Ah that's because you're parsing (cutting up) the sentence the wrong way. This business of the noun leniting an adjective only covers what's called the noun phrase. Let me cut up two sentences properly to begin with:

Bha [a' ghrian] blàth | The sun was warm
Bha [a' ghrian bhlàth] uaine | The warm sun was green

There's various ways in which you can think of this. If you tend to come at a new language from English, then you can simply say that if there's a verb between the noun & adjective, only the one next to the noun gets affected by lenition. If you prefer a grammatical explanation, then you can say that in the first one, blàth is the predicate (the bit of a sentence which tells us about the subject) whereas in the second sentence, blàth is an adjective modifying the noun whereas uaine is now the predicate, telling us about the subject (the warm sun). Make more sense? You'll need the concept of the predicate sooner or later anyway, by the way, when unpicking tha vs 's e sentences.

I notice the definite article is used differently in gaidhlig than in english

Well spotted, many people don't really think about that till way later. Gaelic is fonder of the article than English but it's hard to come up with rules. Most languages and countries require it though (but bear in mind that the countries around the Irish Sea are odd in that respect, for example it's Alba but aimsir na h-Alba and Sasainn takes no article at all).

So for examples like Tha an litir seo dhan chailleach or Tha a' chaora dhubh glè theth fon ghrian that seemingly contradicts the previous lesson, it's because cailleach and grian are feminine and they lenite usually with the article a' right?

I'm not sure where the confusion is. As we said before in the other thread, dhan/fon/fo/do etc do their business irrespective of the gener of a noun, is that it (again)?

[Níall Beag]

Also something I want to clarify, for http://taic.me.uk/leasan5.htm while being taught about preposition you can clearly see that it's laid out to say:

for some
preposition + noun = lenition
preposition + n + noun = no lenition i.e.

fo
fo thruinnsear
fon truinnsear

dha / do
dha taigh / do thaigh
dhan taigh / don taigh

So for examples like Tha an litir seo dhan chailleach or Tha a' chaora dhubh glè theth fon ghrian that seemingly contradicts the previous lesson, it's because cailleach and grian are feminine and they lenite usually with the article a' right?

"fon", "dhan" etc are prepositions with the article fused onto them. The lenition follows the normal rules for lenition after an article in the dative. You won't see D or T lenited after an article -- the N blocks it. But you'll see BH, CH, FH, GH, MH and PH, because they're not blocked.

Why are D and T not lenited - why does the N block it? Because the N is pronounced in the same part of the mouth as the D or T. And if you're in the right part of the mouth anyway, you may as well pronounce the full thing -- it's easier.

[jasonleitch]

Bha a' ghrian blàth anns a' mhadainn that I can't explain

Ah that's because you're parsing (cutting up) the sentence the wrong way. This business of the noun leniting an adjective only covers what's called the noun phrase. Let me cut up two sentences properly to begin with:

Bha [a' ghrian] blàth | The sun was warm
Bha [a' ghrian bhlàth] uaine | The warm sun was green

There's various ways in which you can think of this. If you tend to come at a new language from English, then you can simply say that if there's a verb between the noun & adjective, only the one next to the noun gets affected by lenition. If you prefer a grammatical explanation, then you can say that in the first one, blàth is the predicate (the bit of a sentence which tells us about the subject) whereas in the second sentence, blàth is an adjective modifying the noun whereas uaine is now the predicate, telling us about the subject (the warm sun). Make more sense? You'll need the concept of the predicate sooner or later anyway, by the way, when unpicking tha vs 's e sentences.

I notice the definite article is used differently in gaidhlig than in english

Well spotted, many people don't really think about that till way later. Gaelic is fonder of the article than English but it's hard to come up with rules. Most languages and countries require it though (but bear in mind that the countries around the Irish Sea are odd in that respect, for example it's Alba but aimsir na h-Alba and Sasainn takes no article at all).

So for examples like Tha an litir seo dhan chailleach or Tha a' chaora dhubh glè theth fon ghrian that seemingly contradicts the previous lesson, it's because cailleach and grian are feminine and they lenite usually with the article a' right?

I'm not sure where the confusion is. As we said before in the other thread, dhan/fon/fo/do etc do their business irrespective of the gener of a noun, is that it (again)?

This helped a lot and I seeeee now, damn can't believe I didn't notice that it makes so sense now.

The confusion on the prepositions lenition is basically from looking at examples like these:

fo thruinnsear - under a plate
fon truinnsear - under the plate

which makes perfect sense, but then seeing

fon ghrian in which looks like the exact same structure being lenited, but again I am over looking the fact that b p f m g c lenite with an article in the datice irrespective of gender like you said and d t l n r sg sm sp and st don't, hense fon truinnsear.

And I'll have to take another look at your explanation of the gaidhlig aritcle in the morning, loooooong day today.

[jasonleitch]

Also something I want to clarify, for http://taic.me.uk/leasan5.htm while being taught about preposition you can clearly see that it's laid out to say:

for some
preposition + noun = lenition
preposition + n + noun = no lenition i.e.

fo
fo thruinnsear
fon truinnsear

dha / do
dha taigh / do thaigh
dhan taigh / don taigh

So for examples like Tha an litir seo dhan chailleach or Tha a' chaora dhubh glè theth fon ghrian that seemingly contradicts the previous lesson, it's because cailleach and grian are feminine and they lenite usually with the article a' right?

"fon", "dhan" etc are prepositions with the article fused onto them. The lenition follows the normal rules for lenition after an article in the dative. You won't see D or T lenited after an article -- the N blocks it. But you'll see BH, CH, FH, GH, MH and PH, because they're not blocked.

Why are D and T not lenited - why does the N block it? Because the N is pronounced in the same part of the mouth as the D or T. And if you're in the right part of the mouth anyway, you may as well pronounce the full thing -- it's easier.

OH! Well that is interesting! Does that tie into the rules I've just written above as a why to how things are laid out in that way? Or was I just wrong in that half educated tired assumption.

[Seonaidh]

Probably dialect-dependent, but the "blocking" sometimes happens (and sometimes not) with S also. I think (not sure) that "gun sholas" and "gun solas" would both be OK for "without light".

Ever noticed what an odd language English is? We're taught that there's two articles, Definite and Indefinite, "the" and "a" or "an", but no indefinite plural article, and that nouns always have an article, e.g. "a man", "the man", "men", "the men". And, just when you get to grips with this, they chuck at you stuff like "man" as some sort of generic, e.g. "Man is a species of animal" or whatever. Also, we have "a school", "the school", "schools", "the schools" - yet, when we talk about going to a particular school, we say something like "I'm going to school". Weird or what? At least in Gaelic when we talk about a particular school we stick in a Definte Article, e.g. "tha mi a'dol don/dhan sgoil" (don = do+an, dhan = dha+an)

[jasonleitch]

Probably dialect-dependent, but the "blocking" sometimes happens (and sometimes not) with S also. I think (not sure) that "gun sholas" and "gun solas" would both be OK for "without light".

Ever noticed what an odd language English is? We're taught that there's two articles, Definite and Indefinite, "the" and "a" or "an", but no indefinite plural article, and that nouns always have an article, e.g. "a man", "the man", "men", "the men". And, just when you get to grips with this, they chuck at you stuff like "man" as some sort of generic, e.g. "Man is a species of animal" or whatever. Also, we have "a school", "the school", "schools", "the schools" - yet, when we talk about going to a particular school, we say something like "I'm going to school". Weird or what? At least in Gaelic when we talk about a particular school we stick in a Definte Article, e.g. "tha mi a'dol don/dhan sgoil" (don = do+an, dhan = dha+an)

Great insight, Seonaidh

[akerbeltz]

"gun sholas" and "gun solas" would both be OK for "without light".

Depends on where. In Lewis, the blocked lenition rule seems to be getting really shaky amongst younger speakers (just proofread someone who had aon sheachdain ). In most other places though, gun sholas would be seen as odd.

[Thrissel]

(just proofread someone who had aon sheachdain )

BTW, was it somebody from the Parliament, from MG Alba or from the BBC?