Songs and preposition

[jasonleitch]

Hello all,

I posted a wee while ago about preposition wondering how it works and about that pesky second form for a feminine noun that pops up. I use the nominative side of things with the proper rules and lentions for preposition. But with songs I see it written/sang more grammatically correct. Is there any particular reason for this or is it just more musical sounding?

thanks

[faoileag]

There isn't a separate set of rules for songs - if anything, they're more likely to 'break' rules.

Have you some examples of lyrics and your comments on them, so we can figure out what you mean?

[jasonleitch]

Well, nominate noun for hand: làmh, dative form: làimh

I am aware of the dative form but I use làmh in all situations, at least until I get a better grasp of the language. So,

ris an làmh, instead of ris an làimh

I just noticed in a few songs that they use the dative form of female nouns but last time I posted about preposition someone said that in everyday speech the nominative is used. Just wondered if there was a particular reason why that is.

[akerbeltz]

Traditional songs (yeah I know it's a gummy term!) will often tend to conservative language patterns, partly because a lot of them are subverted poems. So it's not surprising at all to see the dative more often in songs. Here's a few other examples of what you get in songs which in everyday language is not the norm anymore:
cànan ta leth ri mi chridh' ↔ a tha leth

bha fuil mu shròin ↔ mu shròn

bithibh dìleas d' ur dùthaich ↔ dh' ur dùthaich

marbhaiche 'n fhèidh air na beannaibh ↔ air na beanntan

(not all the same song)

[jasonleitch]

That's cool. It kinda makes it hard to use songs as another tool for learning when it's set up that way. What I mean by that is, it's hard to follow the speech when listening to it because my brain can't make the cognitive jump to "OH they must mean this" from context (yet). And harder to learn the songs you like when you don't really know what your saying xD.

[Níall Beag]

Most songs in most languages are pretty dodgy as a learning resource. Stress is misplaced to fit the rhythm, word order is changed about to fit the rhyme, and unusual words and phrases are used for "punch" and effect. It's really not a good idea to learn any language from song, unless someone has evaluated and recommended the particular songs as learner resources that follow the basic patterns of "normal" language use....

[Seonaidh]

I don't agree with that. Yes, songs often have weird stuff in them, but they have the advantage of being memorable. For instample, I was aware of the pronunciation, spelling and meaning of "Fàilte gu Tìr an Airm" long before I had any serious knowledge of Gaelic. And such a simple little phrase also helps to remind me of the possessive case of "arm" and the fact it doesn't use the "t-" in that case. It also tells me that "gu" doesn't cause sèimheachadh.

[akerbeltz]

Perhaps we can agree that songs as a learning resource can be useful when handled with care? Agreed, they're memorable but Niall also has a good point about them being rather unnatural in contrast to everyday speech. No Italian I know speaks like they do in Aida, though that's an extreme example of course.

I personally prefer rhymes as a learning resource, they have the advantage of being just as memorable but involve less crazy modulation to fit the tune.

[Seonaidh]

I personally prefer rhymes as a learning resource, they have the advantage of being just as memorable but involve less crazy modulation to fit the tune.

A song is a rhyme with a tune, a rhyme is a song without a tune. Gaelic poetry is traditionally sung rather than just said. Rhymes have a metre just like songs do - and it's that that (a) makes them memorable and (b) causes them to have, on occasion, the very same stilted, stylised and mangled language forms found in songs. In both cases, the mark of the good composer is the avoidance of such devices.

Now, which is more "memorable", and why? :-

(1) Innsidh mi sgeulachd mu chath
A chaidh a tholladh le gath.

(2) An seo chì thu cath
A chaidh a tholladh le gath.

[Níall Beag]

I don't agree with that. Yes, songs often have weird stuff in them, but they have the advantage of being memorable.

Then I shall repeat myself:
unless someone has evaluated and recommended the particular songs as learner resources that follow the basic patterns of "normal" language use....

If there's particular songs that helped you, by all means recommend them to others, but I wouldn't recommend memorising songs with no evaluation of their suitability.

[Seonaidh]

Thuirt thu

Most songs in most languages are pretty dodgy as a learning resource.

Chan eil mi ag aontachadh. Thuirt thu

unless someone has evaluated and recommended the particular songs as learner resources that follow the basic patterns of "normal" language use...

Chanainnsa gu bheil òrain san fharsaingeachd ceart gu leòr agus gun lean a' mhòrchuid dhiubh dòighean cànain nàdarra. Cus "We three kings of orient are" a th' agad, smaoin.

[Thrissel]

Nuair a bha mi nam dheugaire ag ionnsachadh na Beurla, bha teacsaichean leis The Beatles, Simon & Garfunkel, Bob Dylan amsaa glè fheumail dhomh air sgàth a' bhriathrachais, eadhon gràmair gu h-ìre, ged nach do dh'"evaluated and recommended the particular songs as learner resources" duine sam bith. Air an làmh eile, nam b' fheàrr leam, can, ceòl an 18mh linn seach ceòl nan 60an an 20mh tè, 's mathaid gum biodh cùisean gu math diofraichte.