Fòram na Gàidhlig

I don't even know how I can be helped here. As the title suggests this is (to me) the next mountain I have to climb. Not only understanding things in English that just sort of happen, things I've never really given much thought to. Like clauses for instance or which part of the sentence is modifying the other. But transferring that ability to Gaidhlig. I've done most of the heavy lifting, I understand, main, subordinate, essential and non-essential relative clauses prepositional and adverbial clauses. Which is at this point the only few I've come across. The confusion comes when some of these seemingly do the same thing by definition! When Answering questions like "which one?" and such. Not only that but I'm left with a raised eyebrow when trying to use/understand the meaning in the Gaidhlig equivalents of these clauses. All the while trying to keep in mind that they use the assertive verb and what meaning it might sway.

"The Assertive Verb with the Dependent Clause" gur and nach

Tha mi ag ràdh gur ise mo mhàthair
vs
Tha mi ag ràdh gu bheil i mo mhàthair (which i understand)

Again
Tha mi a' creidsinn gur e do chù a bha a' comhartaich

and the presence of a bha still not clear to me beyond setting tense.

Bha mi 'n dòchas nach esan a bhiodh ann

presence of nach and a bhiodh hasn't really been explained to me just breezed passed even though I understand the meaning. (i think) it's a fairly complicated sentence for a beginner to try and USE not just read.

But really the big I-don't-even-have-a-clue-what-you're-talking-about usages of the Assertive verb are in Using the Assertive Verb to Introduce Adverbial and Prepositional Clauses section of Lesson 19 on the Taic website. There is no point in even posting example because in the entire section I don't have a bludy clue what he's on about. But for the sake of it:

'S ann fon bhòrd a bha am ball - The ball was under the table (O_o) What happened to Bha am ball fon bhòrd,

I'm just saying, it is there is under the table was the ball IS DIFFICULT for my brain to process clearly considering this is all out of context.

...please help

May I suggest a different way of looking at this - that is, if I understand your problem right.

Gaelic distinguishes between (1) verbs-with-nothing-in-front and (2) verbs-with-something-in-front (just to get away from assertive and all that). There's two types of (2) and some odd cases of (1) but that's the basic idea.

(1) you mostly get at the start of a sentence. Stuff like tha, 's e, buailidh... (2) can crop up anywhere really, sometimes at the start of a sentence or sometimes in the middle. The point about (2) is that there's always something in front which causes the verb to change shape.

Now, using subclauses is just a fancy way of saying something with one sentence rather than two. Take English. I like cake. I told him that. becomes I told him that I like cake. Same sentiment, fewer sentences. In English, nothing much happens, apart from word order. But in Gaelic, most of the time if you take (1) and (1) and mush them together, you end up with (1) and (2) because (1) now sits in front of (2) within the same sentence.

So. Think of this whole thing by starting with two individual sentences. For example, 'S toigh leam cèic. Innsidh mi dha. Both are type (1). But if you want to merge them into one sentence, something has to give. If we start with Innsidh mi dha, that remains (1). But the other sentence now has something-in-front-of-it. So it becomes (2). So 'S has to become gur, resulting in Innsidh mi dha gur toigh leam cèic.

Yes, I'm oversimplifying and there's lots of funny business, but before we go into exceptions and details, it's good to make sure the fundamental principle is clear as mud.

I understand the concept. So gur is providing as much emphasis as an assertive should? Meaning there is a way to say it that I'm probably more familiar with that isn't assertive? Please continue.

Ok, next question - what the heck is an assertive verb??

I'm aware of it having being used to draw a nuance of emphasis towards a certain part of a sentence. An assertion is usually doubtless, and used comparatively. So Gaelic uses a form of the verb 'to be' to assert whatever the subject is? So if I were to say in English

I am a sailor
I am a sailor
I am a sailor

(not sure how I would take the same sentence in Gaelic and assert each part individually)

In English I could draw three assertive meaning from those claims which would obviously be marked by tonal changes. Not sure what else qualifies in Gaelic though.

Ah ok, I think I'm beginning to get there now. Assertive... right. Most people I know call that fronting but I guess any's as good as the other.

I think what's confusing you is the fact that some sentences are by default fronted/assertive but without impacting emphasis. Let me back up a bit.

Historically, you had this pattern:

Is cù e (normal)
'S e cù a th' ann (emphasis on cù)

But the first type is all but extinct in Gaelic, which means that the old emphatic, fronted construction is now just the "normal" construction. That means that you cannot place more emphasis on the cù by changing the word order. So in a sentence, especially a short one, using 's e/b' e there's not much you can do to place emphasis. One of those few places where you have a bit of wriggle room in terms of how you stress stuff using your voice. It's hard to do in writing but contrasting:
'S e cù th' ann
with
'S e cù th' ann
the second 'S e is ever so slightly drawn out, from [ʃɛ] to [ʃɛː] or somewhere in between, with the voice staying level on 'S e and the dropping to cù rather than rising to cù and the dropping. Again tricky but the first one is a bit like
-\_
whereas the second is
‾-\

In terms of fusing two sentences together, there's no way of carrying over the syntactic stressing, so 's e becomes gur regardless.

So on that note before we go any further what is the difference between

Tha mi ag ràdh gur ise mo mhàthair
vs
Tha mi ag ràdh gu bheil i mo mhàthair

Why is the assertive even needed if it's not doing anything. I mean this is the tip of the iceberg, there a lot from this lesson that I don't quite get and need extra information on. I get that it becomes gur I don't even care why at this point I just get it. But what is it doing that gu bheil is not? Or is it like

I say that SHE is my mother
vs
I say that she is my mother.

Tha mi ag ràdh gur ise mo mhàthair
vs
Tha mi ag ràdh gu bheil i mo mhàthair

The second is ungrammatical. The second part of sentence you're fusing on uses the copula (is ise mo màthair) so this obligatorily has to become gur. You have no choice. Also, 's ise mo mhàthair is emphatic (assertive) not because of the word order but because you're using ise. The normal would be 's i mo mhàthair

I say that SHE is my mother
vs
I say that she is my mother.

That would be
Tha mi ag ràdh gur ise mo mhàthair
vs
Tha mi ag ràdh gur i mo mhàthair.

Ok... So the sentence

Tha e ag ràdh gu bheil e fuar. Is correct?

(1) you mostly get at the start of a sentence. Stuff like tha, 's e, buailidh... (2) can crop up anywhere really, sometimes at the start of a sentence or sometimes in the middle. The point about (2) is that there's always something in front which causes the verb to change shape.

Now, using subclauses is just a fancy way of saying something with one sentence rather than two. Take English. I like cake. I told him that. becomes I told him that I like cake. Same sentiment, fewer sentences. In English, nothing much happens, apart from word order. But in Gaelic, most of the time if you take (1) and (1) and mush them together, you end up with (1) and (2) because (1) now sits in front of (2) within the same sentence.

I do get what you mentioned here. Maybe I'm missing the linguistic subtly between I say and he says. But what's the big difference between Tha e ag ràdh, and Tha mi ag ràdh that this copula "gur" which is actually "Is" HAS to be there. 'Cuase the way i've been taught up to this point has sort of been like ok, use the assertive for this, this and this, then use it to assert. But just from looking at your example in "'s i mo mhàthair" > "Tha mi ag ràdh gur i mo mhàthair." There's no emphasis it's just used over Tha, and I don't know why.

Not to mention there's still the matter of "'S ann" and "gur ann" that are giving me nightmares at the lack of resources material on the subject.

In tha mi ag ràdh gur i mo mhàthair the tha mi ag ràdh doesn't make it necessary to use gur i as opposed to gu bheil but gur i as opposed to 's i. Both gur and gu mean "that", which in sentences like "I say that something happens" etc you cannot omit in Gaelic (like you can in English, "I say something happens").

But you have to use 's e instead of tha, an e? instead of a bheil? etc., including gur e instead of gu bheil, when you link two nouns or a noun and a pronoun. When you link the pronoun i and the noun màthair you need 's i, gur i etc. In tha e ag ràdh gu bheil e fuar you linked the pronoun e with the adjective fuar so you correctly used gu bheil. Makes sense?

(To be honest, I think you should stay well away from TAIC Unit 19 till you've mastered the easier stuff. It's material for weeks and weeks of teachingf / learning, and very confusing.)

REPORTED SPEECH:

The decision to use 'is' or 'tha / bheil' has NOTHING to do with the introductory words like 'I say that / He says that'.
(Bear with me.)

The sort of sentences you're looking at used to be called (when I went to school) Reported Speech, which is logical enough.

That means, you are reporting what someone says or said.

So, start with the actual words spoken.
Tha an duine ag ràdh: "Tha mi fuar" - The man says: "I am cold."

If I report what he says to someone else, we get: "Tha an duine ag ràdh gu bheil e fuar." - tha man says THAT he is cold.
Note that in Gaelic the 'gu' (that) neeeds the question form of 'tha', which is 'bheil'.


In Gaelic, 'tha' is only used for describing (I am cold) , not for identifying (I am a doctor) - for that you need the 'is' verb. (Also called the copula, or the Assertive Verb. This needs study in its own right. Don't mix it in with questions about reported speech, clauses etc.)

Examples:
Is mise Màiri - I'm Màiri.
Is seòladair Anndra - A. is a sailor
'S e dotair a th' ann - he's a doctor ('it's a doctor that's in him')

Since the verb here is not 'tha', but 'is', you can't report these sentences using 'gu bheil'. The form used instead of 'gu bheil' is is 'gur'. (= gu + is)

Tha i ag ràdh gur ise Màiri. - She says that she is M.
Tha an duine ag ràdh gur seòladair Anndra. - The man says that Andrew is a sailor.
Tha mo mhàthair ag ràdh gur e dotair a th' ann. My mother says that he's a doctor.

FRONTING


In Gaelic, if it's important, you tend to move it forward in the sentence; if unimportant, stick it at the end.

A common way of moving an element to the front is to use the assertive verb 'Is' , often shortened to 'S...., followed by a relative clause begining with 'a' (another word for 'that').

'S e dotair a th' ann - He's a DOCTOR (not a teacher) = 'It's a doctor that's in him'.

You could also say 'Is dotair e.' - he's a doctor - but there would be no emphasis. In fact we regularly use the emphatic 'S e X a th' ann for jobs, as in English there would be a light stress on the job-word too.

If you want to stress an adjective or adverb, rather than a noun, you use 'S ann, not 's e.

'S ann uabhasach fuar a bha e! - it was terribly cold! (It's terribly cold that it was!)
'S ann ro shlaodach a tha mi ag obair. - I'm working too slowly. (It's too slowly that I am working.)


All this has nothing to do with Reported Speech. It's in Unit 19 because that's about the various uses of the Assertive Verb. 'is'.

faoileag wrote:(To be honest, I think you should stay well away from TAIC Unit 19 till you've mastered the easier stuff. It's material for weeks and weeks of teachingf / learning, and very confusing.)

REPORTED SPEECH:

The decision to use 'is' or 'tha / bheil' has NOTHING to do with the introductory words like 'I say that / He says that'.
(Bear with me.)

The sort of sentences you're looking at used to be called (when I went to school) Reported Speech, which is logical enough.

That means, you are reporting what someone says or said.

So, start with the actual words spoken.
Tha an duine ag ràdh: "Tha mi fuar" - The man says: "I am cold."

If I report what he says to someone else, we get: "Tha an duine ag ràdh gu bheil e fuar." - tha man says THAT he is cold.
Note that in Gaelic the 'gu' (that) neeeds the question form of 'tha', which is 'bheil'.


In Gaelic, 'tha' is only used for describing (I am cold) , not for identifying (I am a doctor) - for that you need the 'is' verb. (Also called the copula, or the Assertive Verb. This needs study in its own right. Don't mix it in with questions about reported speech, clauses etc.)

Examples:
Is mise Màiri - I'm Màiri.
Is seòladair Anndra - A. is a sailor
'S e dotair a th' ann - he's a doctor ('it's a doctor that's in him')

Since the verb here is not 'tha', but 'is', you can't report these sentences using 'gu bheil'. The form used instead of 'gu bheil' is is 'gur'. (= gu + is)

Tha i ag ràdh gur ise Màiri. - She says that she is M.
Tha an duine ag ràdh gur seòladair Anndra. - The man says that Andrew is a sailor.
Tha mo mhàthair ag ràdh gur e dotair a th' ann. My mother says that he's a doctor.

I absolutely agree with you. I was making good progress and then suddenly felt like a child learning calculus. It has confused to where I can't even describe. I actually feel like I've forgotten stuff lol. Anyway, I have found a few other things and any and I do mean ANY other help on the subject or links to other resource material just for this topic would be greatly appreciated. I still have to look at the replies here and get over the intimidation it's kind of put me under. It's not like I can just roll up to my local uni and sign up, the online material is scarce to say the least. Thanks to all.

Also I understood what you said so much that I almost cried. I love you. Thank you!!!

And as for adj or adv emphasis using 'S ann I've came across this:

'S ann a thuit i air an t-sràid an-dè - (with emphasis on "fell")
'S ann air an t-sràid a thuit i an-dè - (with emphasis on "on the street".)
'S ise a thuit air an t-sràid an-dè - (with emphasis on "she")
'S ann an-dè a thuit i air an t-sràid - (with emphasis on "yesterday")

This is the word reorder you talked about? But here 'S ann emphasizes everything, no?

This is the word reorder you talked about? But here 'S ann emphasizes everything, no?

No, just anything that's not a noun or pronoun. Another way of describing the use of tha vs is would be to learn that is is used if your predicate (the "bit of a senence that says something about the subject") is a noun phrase or pronoun phrase, tha for anything else.

So if you're fronting something that's a noun or pronoun for emphasis, then you have to use is, for example:

Rinn mo mhàthair cèic an-dè.
'S e cèic a rinn mo mhàthair an-dè
'S e mo mhàthair a rinn cèic an-dè
vs
'S ann an-dè a rinn mo mhàthair cèic

I'm not too happy with "'S ann a thuit i air an t-sràid an-dè". I'd be more inclined to something like "'S ann tuiteam a rinn i air an t-sràid an-dè".