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Indefinite genitive after verbal noun

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:21 pm
by Thrissel
My TYG said you only turned a noun into the genitive after a verbal noun when using it with the article. Now I came across this sentence:
BBC wrote:Tha tuathanaich bhuntàta na h-Alba a' toirt rabhaidh gum faodadh an seusan buain a bu mhiosa ann an ùine fhada a bhith aca am bliadhna.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/naidheachdan/19191895

Is it a mistake, does it mean that the rule isn't hard and fast, or is the rabhadh "made definite" by the following clause (ie rabhadh gum rudeigin = an rabhadh)?

Re: Indefinite genitive after verbal noun

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:53 pm
by akerbeltz
The advice in TYG is good. It's that annoying continuum between conservative and innovative speech:

Highly Conservative:
Tha mi ag ithe arain
Tha mi ag ithe an arain
Tha mi ag ithe d' arain


Highly innovative
Tha mi ag ithe aran
Tha mi ag ithe an t-aran
Tha mi ag ithe d' aran


Most "good" native speakers are somewhere in between the two, with the younger end skewing towards the second. This "mixed" pattern suggested by TYG is the one which will raise the fewest eyebrows.

On the whole, only learners would say "a' toirt rabhaidh" though you may get hypercorrection in written Gaelic by natives of course.

Re: Indefinite genitive after verbal noun

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:47 am
by iolair
... agus chunnaic mi seo air BBC Alba an-diugh:

"Tha na Poilis a' toirt rabhaidh do luchd-coiseachd nam beann gun a bhith a' cur earbsa ann am fònaichean-làimhe mar innealan-iùil."

Carson "rabhaidh" an àite "rabhadh"?

Re: Indefinite genitive after verbal noun

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:14 am
by HughDan
Tha fhios nach eil na polais ach "a' rabhadh" - de tha iad "a' toirt?"

Re: Indefinite genitive after verbal noun

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:38 am
by akerbeltz
Carson "rabhaidh" an àite "rabhadh"?
verbal noun = noun, mar sin, toirt (ainmear) + rabhadh (ainmear) > ainmear (t. ainmearach) ainmear (t. ginideach)

Ach mar a thuirt mi roimhe, tha sin tuilleadh 's "ceart"
Tha fhios nach eil na polais ach "a' rabhadh" - de tha iad "a' toirt?"
Tha auxiliary gu math cumanta, m.e. "dèan snàmh!" vs "snàmh!".

Re: Indefinite genitive after verbal noun

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:11 pm
by iolair
'S dòcha gu bheil mi ga thuigsinn a-nis...

A bheil e ceart gur e "a' toirt rabhaidh" eisimpleir de "highly conservative" a th' ann?

Re: Indefinite genitive after verbal noun

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:00 pm
by akerbeltz
'S e gu dearbh, cha chanadh ach glè bheag a dhaoine rud mar sin nuair a bhios iad a' bruidhinn. Fiù na daoine a dh'innseas dhut gu bheil, ma dh'èisteas tu riutha 's iad a' bruidhinn gu nàdarra, cha bhi sgeul air mar is trice. Sin agus an dative case.

Re: Indefinite genitive after verbal noun

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:36 pm
by iolair
Hah! Chunnaic mi air BBC Alba sa mhadainn an-diugh a-rithist e:

"Thuirt e nach tachradh an leithid a-rithist agus gun robh e a' toirt rabhaidh dhan luchd-obrach gu lèir, 's gun robh iad duilich airson na thachair."

'S dòcha gum b'e an dearbh neach-naihdeachd a sgrìobh an dà sgeulachdan!

Co-dhìu agus co-dheth tha mi a' tuigsinn a-nis. Mòran taing.

Re: Indefinite genitive after verbal noun

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:48 pm
by akerbeltz
Haha 's mathaid gun robh. Cuimhnich nach e "cainnt nàdarra" a tha sna naidheachdan ach gu bheil iad 'gan leughadh os àrd, tha sgriobt aca agus ma sin san sgriobt, leughaidh iad sin.

Re: Indefinite genitive after verbal noun

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:14 pm
by GunChleoc
Eadar dà sgeul: an dà sgeulachd ;)

Re: Indefinite genitive after verbal noun

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:51 pm
by iolair
a GhunChleoc,

Chan eil mi gad thuigsinn. A bheil "eadar dà sgeul" nas fhearr na "an dà sgeulachd", neo an ann co-ionnan a tha iad?

Re: Indefinite genitive after verbal noun

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:09 pm
by Thrissel
'S e gnàthas-cainnt a tha a' ciallachadh "by the way, incidentally" a tha ann an eadar dà sgeul. Bha GunChleoc a' luaidh gum bi ainmear singilte a' leantainn an àireamh : aon sgeulachd, dà sgeulachd, trì/ceithir/còig... deich sgeulachdan.

Re: Indefinite genitive after verbal noun

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:53 pm
by iolair
Ah! Mòran taing, a Thrissel - ceartachadh agus fealla-dhà aig an aon àm! Feumaidh mi "sgeulachd" (ainmear singilte) a chleachdadh an dèidh "dà". Bidh cuimhne agam air bho seo a mach.